Materiality

[mjellish]

Ouch buddy.  For the record, that one still hurts...

I still remember standing there in between the rain showers that day, not feeling good (turns out I had pneumonia), watching him go by with Calvin on his back and knowing I had 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th all in the right order with some big odds but would be tearing up my tickets anyway.

[TGJB]

Super Saver did not run a big figure in his only start in Fla, which was at Tampa (which may or may not be relevant). Did not run at GP. Again-- the issue concerns the many that a) DID run huge figures in Fla, especially GP, and b) how they ran at CD or the BC.

[covelj70]

boy, that seems kind of selective/arbitrary

how big is too big?

only GP, not TB?

I don\'t know

I hear you on the point but again, I haven\'t seen one yet that looked bad and ran well so I will just stick with how they look and move during derby week

[covelj70]

well that one made up for the bloody fortune you make on this race most other years!

you have to throw the rest of us a bone once in awhile buddy!!!!

[Fairmount1]

Every horse will have a \"knock.\"  The Pletcher disciples who support him regarding his Derby success or lack thereof always have an excuse for his poor record.  

No matter what horse I list, you will say, Yeah But.  Verrazzano is one of my favorites.  I said for weeks to a poster here the horse had no shot---it wasn\'t because of his breeding.  Now, the defense is he never had the pedigree.  

When asked about this issue of a poor Derby record Pletcher\'s claim is that his horses for whatever reason (his words I believe verbatim but I can look if you want exact) don\'t like the surface at Churchill.  

The fact remains that Florida is the friendly confines of horse racing.  His horses run ridiculous there and I\'ll use his words \"for whatever reason.\"  The same reason his horses haven\'t fared well in the Derby.  Must be the surface.

[covelj70]

I am not \"all for\" or \"all against\" his horses in the Derby

Some I have bet on and won (i.e. Super Saver)

Some I have bet on and lost (i.e. Bandidni)

Some I have successfully thrown out for various reasons (Verazzano, Dunkirk)

Relative to this year\'s Derby, I am saying that if he looks as good in two weeks as he does today, Materiality will run his race.

May not be good enough to beat AP but he will run his race.

Been wrong before, will be wrong again, just my opinion this year

[Fairmount1]

Your question and your answer was:  when has Pletcher had the fastest horse going into the race that had the pedigree to make the distance and that horse hasn\'t won? he hasn\'t

Bandini was my next example.  I guess your position would he be didn\'t win the Derby because he wasn\'t the fastest one going in or his pedigree wasn\'t good enough.  (Neg 3 vs BR neg 5 and FuPeg out of a Dixieland Band Mare).  

Or as someone remarked about Gemologist, \"Something must have went awry with the horse.\"

I\'m curious your opinion on Carpe Diem before the race also.  I\'m being sincere here.  Solving the Pletcher question is critical when he has four horses in the race.  I believe his horses to hit the super are:  

Impeachment, (6.20-1) Part of 4 horse entry.  3rd.  2000.
More Than Ready, (11.30-1), 4th. 2000.
Invisible Ink, (55.00-1), 2nd.  2001.
Bluegrass Cat, (30.00-1), 2nd.  2006.
Super Saver, (8.00-1), 1st.  2010.
Revolutionary. (6.40-1).  3rd.  2013.  

I find it interesting he had 3 horses hit the super in his first two years and only 3 horses hit the super in the 13 years since.

Total record:  40-1-2-2-1

[covelj70]

I bet Bandini and crapped out on that one

He broke his leg during the race so I don\'t think we can draw too many conclusions from his poor performance

I don\'t like Carpe Diem for this race too much.  He\'s maybe my 5th horse but a very distant 5th behind 4 others who I think are much the best in this group

He\'s not fast enough and I don\'t like how he looked in his last race

there\'s a reason the horse didn\'t get started this year until the TB Derby

[johnnym]

J are you at Palm Meadows training center?

[toppled]

I bet Bandini too & I remember as they were loading the horses into the gate he was sweating so much he looked like he just got out of a sauna. I said to myself \"You\'re a dead man.\"

[joemama]

\"Or as someone remarked about Gemologist, \"Something must have went awry with the horse.\"
The reason I said that was that gemologist, after racing in the Kentucky Derby and loosing, then raced in the Haskell, finished 6th in a 6 horse field, and never raced again. OK.

[Agastache]

Can any correlation be drawn that 3 of those board finishes were Winstar horses, Bluegrass Cat, Super Saver, and Revolutionary?

[dannyboy135]

joemama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Or as someone remarked about Gemologist,
> \"Something must have went awry with the horse.\"
> The reason I said that was that gemologist, after
> racing in the Kentucky Derby and loosing, then
> raced in the Haskell, finished 6th in a 6 horse
> field, and never raced again. OK.


A very reliable source says that Gemologist developed a breathing problem in the derby

[Old Mr. Boston]

Jim, I agree with you about Carpe Diem and that Materiality is Pletcher\'s best shot. Other than what I consider the pretty obvious AP, who do you have in your top 4 at this point. I sense from a prior post that Frosted is not high on your list, though he is on mine. Hope you don\'t mind me asking, but since you mentioned that you have 4 I figure it\'s fair game....Thanks

[joemama]

That\'s better than some kind of skeletal issue. No doubt owners get derby fever and may push to run horses when they shouldn\'t run. How much of it is the trainers fault, who knows.  But Pletcho\'s win , place and show record is what it is.  And it isn\'t very good.