Carpet Champ trained by gutless trainer......

[magicnight]

Obvious redboarding, but ... Shug should have scratched PE that BC day. Clearly, she didn\'t care for the surface.

[smalltimer]

First of all jimbo said \"other great mares\"  That would include the NM undefeated mare. If Zenyatta runs the table history will show she\'s a bit better than the New Mexico filly and less than PE.  History will judge her as a great mare with or without jimbo\'s endorsement.  

As far as jimbo\'s size, his size is irrelevant. I know a lot of nose tackles that look like Tarzan and play like Jane.  My point was, do you really have to get personal and call someone gutless in an open forum just because they\'re campaigning in a fashion that you disagree with?  It is THEIR horse, if they wanna run her against cupcakes all day long, that\'s their choice.

Last time jimbo and I disagreed, you came to his defense there also, so it\'s  expected.

[jma11473]

I agree Monmouth Guy---they\'re more concerned with being able to say Z was 14 for 14 (or whatever the final tally is) than that she won anywhere other than So Cal (and one race at Oaklawn). I think \"gutless\" is too strong but to me, shipping to Churchill, Saratoga, or wherever and/or running a game second or third vs. males would say more about her greatness than smacking around weak five-horse fields over and over. There may be a day when the polytrack craze ends, and then people will say \"Yeah, she went undefeated but almost every race was against a tiny field on fake dirt.\"

[TGJB]

First of all, Jimbo is doing fine defending himself. But are you seriously saying that nobody can express opinions about how other people manage their horses, or can\'t unless they have owned horses themselves? Does this go for other sports? Do I have to keep my mouth shut about Valentine leaving Leiter in so long in the last game of the series against the Yanks because I never managed a big league team?

If this idea becomes wide spread the talk radio people will be very unhappy...

By the way, my first interaction with Jimbo on this board literally almost resulted in me having to fight him, which once I met him I realized would have been a bit of a problem, and I\'m 6\' 1, 210. So it\'s not like I automatically defend the guy. New Yorkers have opinions, live with it.

[smalltimer]

jimbo,
This might be a little more \"civil\" post.
Parts of your post I\'ll agree with, others not so.
First of all, John makes enough training money from the Moss\', etal, that your personal wagering wouldn\'t have a big impact.  \"Booing\" athletes is expected by some people, using denegrating names on trainers is ridiculous.  
My point on IWR was just a cheap shot.  (But, I thought you deserved it considering you cheap shotted me about a dozen times a while back. No big deal).
I would love to see Rachel and Zenyatta get together on dirt.  No doubt, running styles favor Rachel bigtime in that scenario, unless there was adequate quality speed to make Rachel work.  On carpet, Zenyatta possesses the running style to make it tough on any other fillies.  The country would go nuts to see a Rachel/Zenyatta matchup anywhere, it\'ll just have to be on Zenyatta\'s turf.
As far as calling John to his face, you missed my point.  Its not a matter of being afraid to do so, its a matter of are you really that classless?  I hope you\'re not.
Hey jimbo...Peace out

[jimbo66]

Smalltimer,

You miss the point about paying John\'s salary.  I am not saying my wagering alone pays his salary.  If gamblers stop betting, he won\'t get any money from the Moss\'s for training. Gamblers fund the pools that pay the bills that make the game run.  Without us, there is no game.  Period.  THis is a business funded by its customers.  I am a customer.  If you bet, you are a customer.

\"Gutless\" is not an expletive.  It is an adjective.  Of course, it is a bit too much in this case, but this is a message board, not church.  Occasionally exaggerating, for effect, to drive conversation and debate is OK.  Shirreffs is doing neither the game nor the posterity of the mare\'s reputation any good with his approrach.  If it is the owners doing this, then I am blaming the wrong guy.  What she is doing in short fields on carpet is not dissimilar to the Globetrotters playing the Generals.  If you want to \"chastise\" me by saying I just want to bet against her.  Do you think I take offense to that?  Back to point 1.  Gamblers pay the bills in this game.  Without us funding this game, there are no purses and now owners looking to buy horses for completely altruistic reasons.  of course, I want to bet into interesting betting pools.  I want to bet on or against Zenyatta in a competitive race, on dirt vs a Rachel or in the Gold Cup against the best carpet-running males.  But not against the same 5 horse field again and again and again.

[smalltimer]

TGJB, last comment on this thread.
I live in Nebraska, my son is named after my best friend who lives in Binghamton, New York, so yeah, I know about New Yorkers and their attitudes.  I\'m just a country hick who isn\'t used to classless behavior.
Generally the guys giving the coaches hell for bad \"moves\", after the fact, never played or coached the game at a high level, and they\'re usually easy to spot.
But, do coaches mess up?  Yeah, bigtime.  And when they do, I guess they deserve to hear about it.  
When you\'ve coached and dealt with as many world class athletes as I have, you learn to respect everybody, regardless of size.

[congaree1]

To call a trainer gutless for not running his horse at other tracks, is stupid.. That is why I left it short... I would like to see more handicapping and race discussion on this board, but generally that isn\'t the case...

[TGJB]

Certainly not from you.

[congaree1]

Whatever dude!!!

www.facebook.com

Punch in jimmy moroney...

Maybe we can tangle.. I\'m 6\'3 265 and a black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu..


If I win can I have some free sheets... Didn\'t no I made you so sore...

[smalltimer]

Jimbo,
We\'re getting closer...we should be commended.
I\'m glad you explained the concept of wagering to me.  I always wondered where the money came from.  By the way, I do wager, and I rarely wager on short fields, so Zenyatta in small fields, where she may have them overmatched, is a race that I enjoy watching.  But, would I love to see Rachel and Zenyatta on the dirt? Absolutely, but it\'s not gonna happen.
I will revoke my condemnation on your using \"gutless.\"  You\'ve explained the way it was used, and so we can drop that part from the dialogue.
I assumed you knew that John does not PERSONALLY map out Zenyatta\'s course, that is done by his wife, that\'s why I objected to your personal comment on John.
Jimbo, I wasn\'t chastising you by insinuating you wanted to bet against her.  We all want races to play where we think we can beat that heavy chalk.  I do that all day long too, so I know what you\'re saying.  Sometimes though, you just gotta watch a race and root for someone even if you\'re not playing the race.
I grew up playing bullrings in Nebraska in the 1960\'s.  I watched Garrett Gomez ride in my hometown when he was 17.  I\'m been a fan and friend of Mike Smith since he was a bug boy at Aksarben in Nebraska since the early 80\'s.  I like John Shirreffs personally.  They don\'t need me to defend them, but they\'re good men, they\'re some of the best in their profession.  So, its hard for me not to be a fan of these guys, even if its a race I can\'t play.
Thank jimbo,
have a good one.

[jimbo66]

Questioning a trainer\'s lack of competitiveness in picking spots for his horses is \"stupid\".

But posting on a horse racing board about your jiu jitsu background is \"smart\" and relevant?

Do you even understand this game Congaree?  That isn\'t even meant as an insult, but if you don\'t realize that putting the mare against the same horses, again and again, on carpet, is not good for the game, then I don\'t think this board is the spot for you.

[smalltimer]

Latest lines:

Jimmy Moroney  3/5
Jimbo66        3/1
TGJB           7/2
All others     5/1

[congaree1]

I don\'t understand why you would call somebody, gutless... This is a game that without players who not exist. But why is it bad for racing if the mare only races in Cally? If I went from betting 10-12k a day down to 2k a day, do you think it would matter for the game... And I was never insulted...

[congaree1]

7/2 for Jerry seems like an underlay!!