Carpet Champ trained by gutless trainer......

[jimbo66]

Apologize for the nasty subject of this thread, but boy is it disappointing to read about what John Shirreffs has planned for Zenyatta this year.  She won\'t leave California, won\'t race on anything but carpet and won\'t face males.  He is quoted as saying \"Saratoga is a long way away\".  If this isn\'t part of what is wrong with racing, I don\'t know what it is.  Compare this awful sportsmanship with what the connections of Rachel have done.  In Zenyatta\'s next start they say \"there may be a rematch with Life is Sweet\".  That is like advertising for the Globetrotters that they may have a rematch with the Washington Generals.  Who cares.  

Zenyatta is the best \"carpet champ\" of our error, but that is it.  One dirt race, one race outside California doesn\'t get it done.  Even when she retires 14 for 14, it will not be comparable to Personal Ensign\'s record or other great mares who travelled and took on all comers.  

Terrible terrible job by John Shirreffs and the connections.

[richiebee]

Jimbo:

Have to disagree here, and hope you have read Crist\'s comparison of Personal
Ensign and Zenyatta in his DRF blog.

Jim, you are about 20 years younger than I am. Covel has told me that he is a
\"pup\" and Silver Charm pointedly gloated that he recently celebrated a birthday
which made him \"much younger\" than I am.

One thing which I have seen change in Racing is that the best horses used to
come to the East Coast and specifically NY to really establish themselves. One
of the first runners that D Wayne had which made him a national presence was the
brilliantly fast filly Terlingua. I am sure there were Grade I races she was
eligible for in California, but she was shipped cross country to face the cream
of the crop, and as I recall, was beaten at a short price. Other West Coast
based runners I remember coming East to face the heavy hitters were Exceller
and JO Tobin, among others.

Without trying to sound too provincial,and without trying to infuriate a
certain poster from the Bay Area, in the 70s and 80s the Graded Races run at
the NYRA tracks were the races that Owners, Trainers and Breeders wanted to win.
The purses tended to be higher and the races had more history. I can not be
scientific about this other than to say that each September, after Saratoga
(used to be the AUGUST place to be) closed, they conducted a Fall Championship
Meeting at Belmont (and this really meant something before the 1984 roll out of
the BC). Runners converged on Belmont from Europe, California, Canada and the
Midwest.

Any defender of California racing in the 70s and 80s must be prepared to
provide the name of a runner who raced strictly on the West Coast who became an
influential stud on a national level.  

NYRA grew complacent. Other venues began to offer larger purses. NYRA stakes
were downgraded. Other tracks, notably Arlington with its Million, began to
make inroads in terms of creating and promoting high purse graded events which
became important to breeders and owners worldwide.

At the same time, the breeding industry evolved in a way that performance on
the track and in graded events was marginalized.

Personal Ensign ventured away from NY only once. In her era, because of the
status of NY racing, it was almost assured that challengers would come to face
her in her own backyard.

I have no problem with Zenyatta\'s connections trying to maintain her undefeated
status. I doubt that the Mosses will ever sell any interest in this filly or
any of her produce, at auction or otherwise. As such, there is nothing which
can happen on the racetrack which will affect her value positively or
negatively to any great degree.

Zenyatta\'s connections had very good fortune that the Brilliant! minds which
are currently running Racing (into the ground) decided to conduct the BC races
over the carpet for 2 straight years. They are also lucky that Handicap racing
is basically a thing of the past, meaning Zenyatta will likely never be put in
a position where she is heavily weighted against less qualified rivals.

I do not feel as strongly as you do that Zenyatta\'s connection\'s decisions to
remain in a comfort zone is so much a part of what is wrong with Racing; I
would be much more concerned with the serious problems in 3 of Racing\'s major
venues-- California and Kentucky have each approached state authorities with
requests for FEWER racing dates, and NY only manages to race 5 days a week by
diluting the quality(?) of its once proud racing program with turf sprints and
cheap NY bred races.

Loved the line about the Generals and the Globetrotters.

[covelj70]

Jimbo,

Love the line about the Generals and The Globetotters but one question, who do you want her to face on the East Coast other than Rachael?

They tried shipping her to Louisville to showcase her on racing\'s biggest weekend but the track came up wet so they decided to play it safe.  Seperate debate about whether she should have scratched out of that race but it wasn\'t like what she was facing in there was any better than what she is running against out west.

Short of shipping to Europe and running on the grass, where do you think she would find any real competition other than Rachael and then we would be criticizing her for \"only\" beating a 3 year old filly?

[MonmouthGuy]

Covelj70

My biggest problem with this decision is that the connections should take advantage of the opportunity to showcase this filly to the racing public like Jackson did with Curlin last year.

RA has already won graded stakes on 4 different tracks in 2009 and will likely run at Belmont, Saratoga, and Santa Anita before the year is out.

Would it hurt Sheriffs to ship her to run in the Go for Wand, Personal Ensign or Beldame...even if the races are essentially coronations...instead of treating her like she is the female version of Lava Man?

[BitPlayer]

Not to defend the decision, but a couple of things may help explain it:

Shirreffs had unpleasant experiences in NY detention barns with both Giacomo and Tiago.

Moss is on the CHRB and feels an obligation to support racing here in the Bankrupt State.

[miff]

Staying home is always safer.Not much competition for her in the filly/mare division.Would love to see her and Rachel match up at the top of their game. I\'d say RA would have a substantial edge with her superior early gas.Zenyatta is visually/physically impressive and a runner but continues to beat up on the Sisters Of The Poor out in Cali.Her 101 Beyer is slow. She\'ll fare better on TG with the weight and ground loss.

NYRA should put up $2 Million for these two to race at the SPA but they\'re probably not smart enough to even think of such a thing.Bet you would not be able to get into the joint and National TV would cover the race for sure.


Mike

[congaree1]

Gutless trainer, are you serious?

[covelj70]

They did ship to Churchill to try and showcase her.  Again, the scratch was questionable given that the track was fast by the end of the day but at least they did ship and intended to do it.

I would love to see her at the Spa this summer but I think it would be against the same weak fields she faces on the west coast unless they find a way to get her and Rachael in the gate against one another!

[bellsbendboy]

Jimbo have a little different take and think that \"Z\" compares very favorably with Personal Ensign.  But first Shirreffs is NOT taking the easy way here.

The schedule for \"Z\" would seem to mirror last year.  In last weekend\'s Milady, \"Z\" defended her title while picking up four pounds to 126.  The Vanity, June 27th would seem next and she would pick up two, if not three pounds; a certain bet against.

If she were to win, the Hirsch would be next and she would be looking to tote perhaps 130 around the compact Delmar oval.  Before scale weights in the Lady\'s Secret and Breeders cup.

As far as Personal Ensign, as great as she was she only raced outside of NY twice; once in the Molly Pitcher where she toted 125 ( the only time she packed more than 123) paying $2.80 to win and of course her Breeders cup triumph at Churchill.  Poly or not Zenyatta is fabulous and her upcoming schedule is daunting. bbb

[heatherk]

PE is a phipp\'s home-bred and a bad example. Easy goer was another and seldom do you see those types outside of NY. Curlin is a great example as is Cigar, Forego, John Henry and a few others.  Notice the term few.  Owners and trainers of the empire state were reluctant as Sheriffs to ship their horses out of town. I understand and see the same thing in NY.

[smalltimer]

jimbo66,
You are indeed a classic.  And you \"apologize\" for the nasty subject?  You\'re all about being nasty about lots of things.
I have several questions...Have you purchased a filly at a sale for less than 6 figures and campaigned her for 10 straight wins and over $2M in earnings?  If not, then who are you to designate where she should run?  You\'re just chomping at the bit to play against her, so where\'s the sportsmanship in that?  I don\'t have to bet a nickel on her to just enjoy watching her run. If she gets beat, does that make her any less valuable as a broodmare?    
Do you think it makes any difference to John Shirreffs what your opinion is?  I think not.  Personal Ensign was one of the great fillies of all time.  Why does Zenyatta have to approach or surpass her?  To please you?  By the way who are these other \"great mares\" you\'re talking about that were also undefeated?
The last horse I remember you campaigning was IWR and he failed to make the gate at the Derby while you were tearing up your future tickets.  Maybe Mullins should have left this horse out west and then tried the dirt in his first attempt on regular dirt, he might have had a Derby winner.
So this is what\'s wrong in part with racing?  How bout taking top 3 year olds off the track and send them to stud and deny the racing public high profile matchups?  That\'s one of the biggest problems in racing.  Curlin campaigns all over the world because of the great sportsmanship of those connections?  Gimme a break, it was all about litigation.  If that mess had been resolved, we wouldn\'t have seen Curlin as a 4 year old.  Run him on the turf and get him beat, run him on Pro Ride and get him beat?  That\'s sportsmanship?  No, that\'s resume building.  Gotta show \'em the potential offspring might be able to handle turf or artificial.  Sportsmanship went out of this game a long time ago.  It\'s about money now.  Make as much money as you can make while conducting the type of campaign that let\'s your horse be ready for the very best effort of the year in the Breeder\'s Cup where the money is huge. If, repeat if, Zenyatta can get it done 3-4 more times this year and earn $4M plus, what\'s wrong with that?  You gotta  beautifully spaced, beautifully campaigned and healthy 5 year old mare who has a chance to hit the breeding shed in one piece.  It doesn\'t mean she can throw any good runners, but she might. Jimbo, when you have a rare commodity like Zenyatta, its about managing risk.  Five years from now, you think anybody\'s gonna care where or on what surface she won her races?  
As far as referring to Shirreffs as gutless, would you call him that to his face?

[MonmouthGuy]

\"Five years from now, you think anybody\'s gonna care where or on what surface she won her races?\"


The answer to that question is \"absolutely\" and I think the connections are fine with that.

[jimbo66]

Covelj(Jim),

I think the person who mentioned \"Lava Man\" is correct.  That was a weak scratch by Shireffs in Churchill.  Was that field worldbeaters?  In hindsight, no, but before the race I would have said that trying to run down One Caroline on a dirt track with an easy lead was a tall order for the \"carpet champion\".  

Not only is it that she stays in California, but she stays on synthetic surfaces.  She is not even in the conversation of great fillies IMO if all she does is win on carpet.  Carpet is a different surface.  As you can tell by all the small fields and the short racing weeks in California, carpet has been a failure.  That is further evidenced by the data Michael D posted on this board a few weeks back in that synthetics are not safer than the better dirt tracks.  

Zenyatta is over-rated.  right on par with Pepper\'s Pride...  Nice feat, but doesn\'t stack up historically.

[TGJB]

Smalltimer-- I try to stay out of nonsense like this, but that is one dumb post. That filly in New Mexico was undefeated too-- world beater.

Congaree-- try to contribute something other than \"were you drinking\" or \"are you serious\", okay? If you can\'t do that, at least be funny.

Since Jimbo is the size of your average nose tackle, I don\'t think he would be too concerned about meeting Shirreffs face to face.

I don\'t think it\'s the trainer\'s call and \"gutless\' is over the top, but I basically agree with Jimbo. These people don\'t need the money, they are not going to sell the foals, she\'s already got an Eclipse award, if you\'re going to run her, run her. Otherwise, what\'s the point? Personal Ensign ran against boys in the Whitney. Running in 5 horse fields under fake handicap conditions over synthetics at 1/9-- big deal.

[jimbo66]

Not sure you have to purchase fillies to be able to comment on the game.  I am the customer.  I pay Shireffs salary by contributing to the parimutuel pools.  Without me, and the other gamblers out there, there is no horse racing game.  I get to \"boo\", just like the baseball fans who pay for tickets and see their teams play bad.

What is your point about me being a proponent of I Want Revenge?  That I didn\'t cash my futures bet.  Yes, guilty as charged.  I was wrong about him winning the Derby.  I am wrong on at least 80 percent of my wagering opinions, just like most of those who bet horses.  It is a tough game.

Shirreff\'s plan for Zenyatta is gutless.  No trip so Saratoga, no races on dirt, no races against males.  Stay in California and beat up tin cans.  then hope to catch Rachel on a surface she has never tried because the idiots that run racing decided to do the Breeders Cup in Santa Anita two years in a row.  Rachel would trounce Zenyatta on dirt, IMO.  Rachel will get trounced by Zenyatta on the carpet, if they race against each other in California.  Carpet racing doesn\'t reward high cruising speed horses like Rachel.  It rewards quick footed turf type acceleration.  Rachel on carpet is like Curlin on carpet IMO.  The two of them have high cruising speeds on dirt and can stay on.  Neither would be confused with a quick-footed accelerator, like Zenyatta.

As for my willingness to call Shirreffs gutless in person.  Aren\'t we being a bit childish?  But the answer is yes, I would certainly be willing to do it.