Big Brown has a quarter crack

[sighthound]

Few days, no problem.

[TGJB]

Sight-- \"I realize, from experience, that some of the things that people worry about (Winstrol, some dietary milkshaking, lasix hiding other drugs etc.) do not do much of anything to affect performance\".

Really.

1-- How do you know that, exactly? How are you measuring performance? And how can you tell which things are the ones moving up horses when they do jump, measurably?

2-- Weren\'t you the one that originally posted Rick Arthur\'s study, showing the effects of TCO2 levels BELOW the threshold for a positive, on finish position?

3-- How do you know that Dutrow is only giving Winstrol once a month? Because he says so?

4-- How do you feel about raceday Clenbuterol? Right now the only place testing for that is California. When they started doing that a few months ago, and cracking down on milkshakes, certain trainers\' winning percentages went down almost 50%.

I agree with much of the rest of what you wrote. But I\'m also among a group of people in the industry that recognizes that current testing is not even putting a dent in the problem, and is taking steps to try to change things. It is like trying to turn around an aircraft carrier-- and having people minimize the issue by saying \"no positive, no problem\" does not help.

By the way, VERY few states are doing EPO testing, unless something has changed in the last few weeks. It\'s expensive, and they don\'t want to spend money.

[sighthound]

Some comments:

Yeah. Really.

I didn\'t say, \"No positive, no problem\".

I cannot adopt your \"all or nothing\" extreme position on this issue, and although you seem eager, I do not care to argue it with you.

[TGJB]

In response to my saying that some trainers were moving up horses, what you said was, \"How many of those trainers are ending up with drug positives\"?

[sighthound]

I assume the answer was zero, which leaves the illegal, currently undetectable stuff.

We agree, detection of that has to be pursued.

[TGJB]

Not to continue this any more than it needs, but it also means lowering the acceptable TCO2 levels (while using the NYRA quarantine method of protecting trainers), doing what California does about Clenbuterol and other broncho-dilators, spending the money for EPO testing, freezing samples, and taking a hard look at steroids. The issue is as much about making the right rules and enforcement as it is about testing.

[TonyP.]

If I remember, Did\'nt Risen Star win the Belmont by 11 lengths racing with a quarter crack?

[fkach]

sightsound,

Thanks for the input. Your presence here is a major plus.

[sighthound]

Thanks, but I didn\'t think the feet would make it to the Preakness.  Shows what I know ...

[BB]

I never met bdhsheets (he liked the lower-case, as I recall),but he was a great poster here for many years. We would be remiss to not recall that he gave out Volponi as his key about a week before they ran the Classic that year - perhaps the best, all-time pick by a poster on this board for a big race.

[marcus]

we should hearing more news very soon on the quarter and over-all condition after todays mile and a half jog .  wasn\'t he given a light training schedule prior to the preakness while keeping within his normal demeanor during that same period of time  ?  i wonder if accounts are true that report a departure from bb\'s normal laid back self to more aggressive behavior - i know spring is in the air and the weather finally got good - however  ...

[miff]

\"Not to continue this any more than it needs, but it also means lowering the acceptable TCO2 levels (while using the NYRA quarantine method of protecting trainers), doing what California does about Clenbuterol and other broncho-dilators, spending the money for EPO testing, freezing samples, and taking a hard look at steroids. The issue is as much about making the right rules and enforcement as it is about testing.\"


JB,

Re \"using the NYRA quarantine method of protecting trainers\" Do you mean protecting the trainer from someone sabatoging their horse?

If you meant that the detention barn thing is working to thwart cheating,it\'s not evident in the results that the usual suspects are now getting in comparison to results pre-detention barn days.

You may be aware that there is strong sentiment amongst many very legit/cold racing outfits to discontinue the detention barn system and NYRA is looking at it.It\'s expensive to small outfits and a fair amount of runners are leaving their race in the detention barn.


Mike

[rosewood]

"Obviously we're being cautious, but he is right on track," McKinlay said. "He is not quick healer, as he has shown with his other injuries.

[TGJB]

Miff-- I mean neither. NYRA is the only one with a system where trainers can appeal a TCO2 positive by having their horse quarantined by NYRA and retested  a day (?) later. If the horse is still at the high level, it is a naturally recurring phenomenom specific to that horse. If the number goes down, the horse was given an alkalizing agent, and the trainer gets a positive.

The problem, as I have stated before, is that the level for a positive is artificially high (37, maybe even 39 in NY), so only one horse has been retested, to my knowledge. If you bring the threshold level down to 34 with the same system in place and serious sanctions, you will have something that works.

[sighthound]

>> The problem, as I have stated before, is that the level for a positive is artificially high (37, maybe even 39 in NY),

That the level is \"artificially high\" is your own opinion.  

It is not an opinion shared by the majority of the veterinary community (we do examine TCO2 levels in horses outside of racing, you know)

There is at least 20 years of TCO2 information on the internet from various racing jurisdictions, including Standardbred racing.  

In many jurisdictions the level used to be lower, but has subsequently been raised to the current level in favor of accuracy.

The NYRA positive level for TCO2 is 37 mm/L for horses.  If the horse gets lasix it is 39mm/L.

Notice that there is 2mm difference in the above?  That is how easily TCO2 levels can be influenced.

>> If you bring the threshold level down to 34 with the same system in place and serious sanctions, you will have something that works

A level of 34 is absurdly low, in my opinion.  It would do nothing but give false positive after false positive.

I suggest that interest parties google TCO2 and see the long history behind establishing acceptable levels for this test in various racing jurisdictions.  This test is old, old, old, and the downsides are well-known and well-documented.

This is why the levels are set where they are today.  A couple decades of experience.