Big Brown has a quarter crack

[cubfan0316]

i guess the message is when you think you have been cheated by a jockey/trainer, you can only hope for them to pay the consequences.horses break down-jockeys die.trainers lose clients, and so on..........

[TGJB]

Sight-- oh, I see. If they don\'t get a positive, we don\'t have a problem.

You know, we could stop testing altogether, and by your logic completely eliminate the whole issue.

I\'ve been trying to figure out what the hell your position is. I think I have it now. If only baseball, track and cycling had you to advise them, they wouldn\'t have all these silly problems!

[Flighted Iron]

CoveLJ70,
 
   My approach to you was reprehensible at best and I apologize.I too want purity
and sportmanship in this GREAT sport and I spoke unwittingly in my haste.
Please forgive.

  Sincerely
   
   


 TGJB,

   I respect your making mention of my ill-mouthed remarks.My apologies to you
and the forum members.I will always contend with the remarks of the
Essence regarding handicapping.\"bet em fast,you can\'t last,bet em slow,you gotta
go\".Regarding Professional Handicappers:Even the sharpest lose most of the time.
I ask you to discontinue my access of this forum.

  Respectfully

[richiebee]

Very good, Uncle.

Here is the way I am looking at this colt and his quarter crack.

Lets say that BB is not looking to sweep the Triple Crown.

Lets say that BB is a very talented 3YO who has had foot problems and is 2 weeks
away from running in a race that is not a Triple Crown race, that is not the
Travers, that is not the BC Classic.

Let say that BB is two weeks away from the Peter Pan or the Jim Dandy or the
Ohio Derby or the Met Mile or some other graded race, and that he has raced
twice in the last month, and that he comes up with the identical quarter crack.

I\'d say Dutrow, a \"spacing\" trainer, gives the colt described in the
hypothetical above whatever time it takes for the hoof to heal completely, not
to mention to recover from the two races in the last month. Dutrow is now
\"playing against type\" as they might say in the entertainment biz, finding
himself in a spot where taking the necessary time is not an option.


Dutrow has covered all bases thus far, including leaving BB at Palm Meadows for
as long as possible, citing the fact that his tender-hooved colt did not have
to travel over asphalt to get back and forth from the track. Dutrow now faces
decisions predicated on his colt\'s physical condition-- how long to keep him
off the track, and what to do with him once he goes back to training.

The pitcher in TGJB\'s hypothetical has popped a blister before game 3. (1969
Mets pitching coach Rube Walker would be dipping the blister in pickle brine).

[ajkreider]

BB apparently back on the track this morning (jogging).  Must be okay.

espn.com

[fkach]

Do we have any trainers or conditioning experts here than can comment on Dutrow\'s view that missing a few days of galloping is NOT going to impact this horse\'s conditioning?

I have seen numerous high level horses that just missed a few days heading into a major race that ran very subpar races right after that. Of course, some of those were for other reasons (fevers, more severe physical issues etc...)

[miff]

Any inactivity/deviation from a noraml training schedule for three days is a knock, regardless of what Tricky says. It may turn out to be nothing, but to rush this horse back on a wet track this morning speaks volumes to me.


Mike

[fkach]

miff,

I agree.

It\'s probably the right thing to do to get him back out there quickly. If the hoof doesn\'t hold up 100%, so be it. He\'s out of the Belmont and then you fix it the right way. But if you are going to run, you want him as close to 100% as possible. If you are going to baby him at this point and potentially cost him the race because of conditioning, why not just sit out and fix it right.

[covelj70]

Mike, I was going to ask about that.

Doesn\'t the wet track aggravate ouchy feet?  That\'s what I\'ve always been told.

My read on this was that he was starting to get worried that the horse was losing some of his conditioning so he moved up his planned return to the track by a day or so even with the questionable track conditions.

The weather forecast for the next few days is terrific here in NYC which makes it all the more curious as to why he would rush it.  Also, the hoof expert didn\'t even see the horse this AM so it wasn\'t like Dutrow got the all clear from him for the horse to go back to the track.

I understand that Dutrow is saying none of this means anything but I find that hard to believe based on my experience with my own horses and trainers.  If we miss a few days of training (for whatever reason) we almost always have to skip the race.  I understand these guys aren\'t going to skip the race but I don\'t think this missed training time bodes well.

I also agree with fkach that IF the horse doesn\'t win, we will never know if it was because of the missed training time or if he was going in the wrong direction anyway but for anyone who was leaning in the direction of the latter, the former certainly only adds to the conviction level that he is at great risk of getting beat.

Seems like Tale of Ekati isn\'t exactly thriving and I agree upon further video tape watching that he hung in the Derby so the distance is more of a question mark for him but Dennis of Cork seems to be doing well, he came into the derby off of 1 race in 7 weeks so he has every right to improve off of that race and he has a competitive number to run back to so he seems very live next Sat.  Obviously Casino Drive is fast and has a good last number but with the obvious foundation question marks.

Dennis of Cork starting to look like the play to me.

[miff]

The other issue is that this normally laid back animal was too aggressive the last few days and that worried the connections.Trainers are loathe to take a horse out of it\'s normal routine and BB was for 3 days, not to mention the possible loss of some of his normal lung power from the downtime.


Mike

[richiebee]

Covel:

According to the DRF Derby chart, TOE was steadied in the first quarter when in
tight, drifted out, reserved along the inside, and came six wide into the
stretch...some might say that TOE has already been the Belmont 1-1/2 mile
distance. A true \"Clockwork Orange\" trip...the old in and out.

The slow work is concerning though, with Coa apparently saying he could not get
TOE on the proper lead. So now TOE has had 2 Belmont preps-- a quick half mile
where he basically ran off with a 100 pound exercise girl and a glacial 6
furlongs in almost 1:19.

With all the talk of Casino Drive\'s dam Better Than Honour, it should be
mentioned that TOE traces back through his second dam, Maplejinsky, to the great
race filly/broodmare Gold Beauty, champion sprinter of 1982 as a 3YO.

This is a pedigree loaded with major stakes winners and champions on the dam\'s
side, including champion Sky Beauty, BC Distaff winner Pleasant Home, and stakes
winners Country Hideaway and Pine Island.

[miff]

Cov,

If Tricky swore on a stack of bibles that this means nothing,I wouldn\'t buy it. Just what it means will be seen on Belmont day if BB gets there.It may also be that he is concerned that the sharks smell blood in the water, by that I mean he may fear that the field size will swell because trainers see BB as more vulnerable now.Pure speculation on my part.

The horrible work by TOE could make him questionable as is Behindathebar as Pletcher not being forthcoming on Belmont status.DOC is a light framed horse which is also why the connections chose his spacing to the ILL derby, don\'t know what if anything that means for the grueling Belmont surface lately and the distance. Hope NYRA pays it\'s water bill as I have noticed Big Sandy swallow two very fast speeds in the last two days( Dream Rush and Commentator, note the last eighth and final raw time, both races)

If I were bucking BB, as you and several others here are, I would swing harder.

Mike

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

Tale of Ekati got a good trip in the Derby.  Inside out is a good trip.  Not as good as 1w/1w, but nonetheless, as somebody who bet quite a bit of money on Tale of Ekati in the Derby, I have zero problem with the trip he got.  His \"trouble\" early in the race wasn\'t much.  He got off the rail approaching the far turn when Big Brown made his move, basically following Big Brown.  An excellent decision IMO by Coa.  If his horse was good enough, he would have kept on going.  Follow the horse you think you have to beat.

He hung in the stretch.  Don\'t think he wants 1 1/4, certainly don\'t think he wants 1 1/2.

[Dudley]

SoCalMan2 Wrote:

 
> There used to be a different guy who ended his
> posts either here or on Ragozin\'s board (or maybe
> both) with the sign off -- \"May they all come home
> safely\"

SCM2- That was BDHSeets. He was a friend of mine. Great guy! \'Sheets passed away- much too young -on to that great pasture in the sky a couple years ago now. But that was he that signed off \"May they all come home safely\" FWIW,  I\'ve little doubt that in his afterlife, he sits on the Racing Gods\' Board of Directors. ;-)

[sighthound]

>> Sight-- oh, I see. If they don\'t get a positive, we don\'t have a problem.

??  Not at all.  We currently test for many, many drugs.  

If trainers - especially \"the ones\" on your list that you are convinced are cheating via their performance compared to their brethen - are not coming up positive to the many we currently test for (including EPO) that leaves only the unapproved, the unknown, the designer, the special (using cobra venom as a nerve block instead of a  -caine drug that tests, for example).

Yes, we have to continue to pursue developing tests for those unknowns asap.  Those drugs are out there.  One things trainers have proven is that they are not all smart, and some of these morons are willing to put anything into a horse.

I think testing of current winners should be expanded and more regular and thorough (not shotgunned as it is currently in some jurisdictions)

>> You know, we could stop testing altogether, and by your logic completely eliminate the whole issue.

Nonsense.  That\'s not what I think at all, and I\'ve never implied it in the least.

>> I\'ve been trying to figure out what the hell your position is.

I\'ve stated my position clearly on this board several times before:  I\'m against use of any illegal drug in the racehorse, and all the drugs we use now (for example, the legal steroids, bute, etc.) should be testable and controlled so there is no possible raceday performance influence.

Here\'s where I differ from many on this board, and nearly all lay people:  I do not think \"drugs - to use or not\" is the black or white issue many do.  Probably because I know what different drugs actually do to a horse.

I realize, from experience, that many of the things some people worry about (Winstrol, some dietary milkshaking, lasix hiding other drugs, etc) really do not do much of anything to affect performance.  Certainly no where near what the general public fears.

For example, \"steroids\" as used by Barry Bonds is no where near, by any stretch of pharmacologic reality, Dick Dutrow giving a shot of Winstrol once a month.

But do I think the legal steroids should be given to horses automatically once a month?  Hell, no.   Do I think Dutrow is giving his horses an advantage over the guy who doesn\'t do that?  Not really, unless he\'s using massive off-label doses, or doing that instead of giving a horse some spacing.

It\'s not black and white.  These are elite athletes, running on the edge of their physiology and metabolism, and they won\'t run very well on hay, oats, water and turnout.
 
Should they run on steroids?  Hell no.  Should they run on lasix?  Yes, but I wouldn\'t get upset with no.   Should they run on nerve blocks?  Absolutely not.   Should they run with recently injected joints?  No.  Should they run with a small amount of bute in their system (too small to do anything about pain, enough to stop inflammation) Yes (but again, if it\'s no, no big deal)

Should we allow the use of steroids, nerve blocks, injecting joints, bute?  Yes.  Of course.  Elite athletes need drugs to keep them healthy - you can\'t deny them drugs that medically help them be racehorses, to deal with what we ask them to do.   Just not where it would influence race day.