Synthetic Surfaces and New York Racing

[richiebee]

In the major venues where synthetic racing surfaces have been installed
(basically Keeneland, Woodbine, and the 3 major California tracks), synthetic
surfaces have replaced traditional dirt surfaces.

Given the size of the two downstate New York facilities, the opportunity exists
to install a synthetic surface which will be used IN ADDITION TO a traditional
dirt surface.

Imagine a nine race card which featured 3 turf races,3 dirt races and 3
synthetic races. Imagine the games trainers could play moving animals back and
forth from one surface to the other.

Synthetic is here to stay. Horseplayers and trainers will adapt to synthetic
quirks. The synthetic database or profile grows with each day of racing.
Horseplayers and trainers will learn the differences in the synthetic surfaces
at the various venues.

As FKach says, the breeding business will have to deal with
uncertainty, but it is hard for me to really feel sorry for thoroughbred
breeders who have made more money than anyone else in the game in the last
quarter century.

Dirt and synthetic side by side. It might be one advantage NY racing might have
over other venues in the near future.

[Dana666]

That sounds really interesting. I guess the main problem would be space -- where would the dirt, synthetic, and turf courses all fit? They could certainly do it at larger tracks. I think it\'s a brilliant idea, and I don\' know why we haven\'t heard this more in the racing media.

Personally, I don\'t know why they just don\'t have synthetic training tracks all over the place and just have them race on dirt. Sounds simpler than an instant conversion to all synthetic everywhere like in California.

[Boscar Obarra]

What you really want to do to draw in the attention  deficit crowd, is run all 3 simultaneously, Turf, Dirt, Syn.

 No waiting an hour to see if you\'ve hit the P3.

 For syndicates we will offer a Three WAy/ Trifecta,  on those same events. Pick Em, 123 - 123 - 123 on one ticket.


  Yeah.

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

I am surprised at your post.  Synthetic surfaces on top of the other two?  Have you been betting the synthetic tracks?  Keenland was ridiculous.  For most of that meet, the wider you were, the further back you were, the better your chance of winning.  Hollywood played similarly early on, then speed got better later in the meet.  Woodbine is unpredictable.  Many \"shrew bettors\" (not an oxymoron) I know are not betting any synthetic tracks.  Did you catch Delmar last week?  I saw more rerallies by tired horses in 3 days than I had seen in the last 30 days.  

I for one, refuse to bet any synthetic tracks.  I only hope that others do the same and if the handle goes down, maybe the tracks think harder about making synthetic tracks the standard.  Are they really that much safer?

[NoCarolinaTony]

More anti poly propaganda....and so it goes.

Think this article by Jeremy Plonk of Horseplayer Magazine offers a different point of view.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=2942342

NC Tony

[miff]

NC Tony

Unfair, you can tell the guy is cluless.Ask him how many \'WHALES\" or serious bettors(pros) he interviewed, the answer is none because they are mostly under the radar. Let me give you a hint, I know many, they would rather give the money to charity than bet big on horses staggering/swerving thru the lane on a slow exhausting garbage surface like the Del Mar Poly.Just another viewpoint.

The financial health of the bettors is at least equal(more,imo) to the well being of the horses and a more middle ground(so to speak) must be found.

Mike

[richiebee]

Jimbo:

      I am not a big proponent of the synthetic surface, but am realistic enough
to see the proverbial writing on the wall. I am just hoping that when Polymania
comes to the NY tracks, the powers that be take advantage of the size of the
downstate facilities and retain the traditional dirt surfaces.

      Personally I am most active during the Fair Grounds meet and frankly I am
afraid that the Churchill people will soon be announcing that FG, which has
very wet winters, will be going synthetic.

      It is probably too early to tell if synthetic is safer, and I am sure
time will prove that some of the synthetic surfaces are safer than others. And
as time goes on, racetrack management will learn how to \"soup up\" a synthetic
surface to produce fast times on a day which features big races and how to make
it less glib when trainers and owners complain that their animals are coming
back \"ouchy\".

      Here are the reasons why synthetic is here to stay, whether certain
horseplayers like it or not:

      1) Dilution of the thoroughbred gene pool, resulting in a less sound
thoroughbred population;

      2) Fewer and fewer true horsemen in the game able to hold horses together;

      3) There is less maintenance (and thus less expense) involved with
synthetic;

      4) The weatherproof nature of synthetic makes for larger fields on days
when tracks used to lose many runners to weather related scratches; and

      5) A large portion of the wagering population is not quite as discerning
as the average TG board poster/ TG info user in that the surface doesn\'t matter
so long as the action is there.

The hardboot purists in Kentucky seemed to support synthetic at Keeneland and
when the sad day comes that the first Kentucky Derby and first Breeders Cup Day
are run over synthetic these wildly popular events will lose none of their
luster or prestige.

      Jimbo you are a smart young man and you will learn how to adapt and pick
your spots, if you haven\'t already. Recently in NY, as I am sure you know, dirt
racing has almost become a novelty the way turf racing used to be.

      Recently my favorite surface has been the lush green fairways of some of
the local golf courses. I will however take a couple of days off from \"hacking
and whacking\" this weekend to attend the races at the greatest summer resort
racing meet which still runs on dirt.

[colt]

That is waaaaaaaaaayyyyy to funny...Boscar...As for the polyquack surface at DMR - I hate it!  Southern-Cal racing use to be so beautiful - find the best horse...go to the lead...back the Brinks truck up and do it all over again the next day.  

Unfortunately with all the switch to polyquack surface in Cali, I have no choice but to seek refuge in the Midwest come this winter.  GP is another track that was sooooooo beautiful until MAGNA ruin it.  

I am so freaking looking forward to Saratoga - I just hope NYRA stop carding NY DREAD races as if it\'s NY showcase-day everyday, and eliminate those MD CLM races on the turf - save them for downstate.

[P-Dub]

colt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>As for the polyquack surface at DMR - I hate it!
> Southern-Cal racing use to be so beautiful - find
> the best horse...go to the lead...back the Brinks
> truck up and do it all over again the next day.  


I find it a little amusing that people are blasting Polytrack, yet some feel \"beautiful\" racing is watching 1 speedball after another go wire to wire. As a longtine California fan, I found this more than a little boring.....and I doubt you were backing up the Brinks truck daily Colt.

In regards to Miffs\' staggering home comments,  thats a little dramatic. Miff,  do you think 10K claimers running 1.08/1.09 and change is a good thing?? Why.....because the track is carrying them home the last 1/8 when by all rights they should be staggering home??

My buddies and I flew in for the first week of Del Mar.  Using TG,  we didn\'t have any problems picking winners (BTW, Vauquelin was a gift opening day..thanks JB).  I didn\'t mind the new surface at all.  I liked looking for horses that didn\'t have to be speedballs. As for horses staggering home....those horses weren\'t good enough to finish.  If you were referring to winners staggering home...maybe frontrunners were getting a little tired (Sneaky Jack was a painful loss Friday) but winners were not staggering home. The track was slower, not the horses. I had a successful week at Del MAr by picking my spots with TG and jumping in.

Synthetic surfaces are here to stay.  Instead of whining and moaning about it, adapt and find a way to win.

[miff]

Paul,

Bottom line. It\'s a garbage surface robbing brilliantly fast horses of their speed, PERIOD!and no data in the world is going to help handicapping horses staggering home in 27 seconds, and not only the 10k claimers.


Mike

[NoCarolinaTony]

Miff,

The leaders may be stagering home, but those coming from somewhere off the pace may be flying home. Why is one style better than the other. Please explain that?

Why does jumping out first and getting out to the lead and plays catch me if you can better than the entire field sprinting home aka Europe Turf?. All that matters  in betting is picking who crosses the line first(second/third etc). It doesn\'t really matter how they got their (in the end) (it actually does as to how you handicap the race but save that for another day).

Maybe from a pure sporting point of view (without wagering), the surface may be an issue. Why not let them run on natural ground vs the made up dirt of loam,sand,and other ingredients shipped into the so called \"real dirt\"  or \"Un-Natural\" surfaces that are being used today. And weren\'t we all bitching about the \"souped up\" dirt surface at CD for the Breeders Cup?

I think we all speak out of both sides of our mouths only to make \"our Point\".

I for one have accepted and moved on.

I choose to say deal with it. You do have a choice of where to play or wager in 2007 and on into the future providing the Horse Racing still exisits. I guess your gripe is that quality racing circuits have been mostly switching to poly leaving you with NYRA (for now) /CT/LRL/PEN/PHA/PIM/SUF/CRC/GP/HAW/MTR I doubt I have to mention Yavapai.....

I just think this coversation is passe\'. Time to move on.

NC TONY

PS Enjoy Saratoga this weekend. I will be there.

[miff]

Tony,

Last post. Don\'t know what races you have been watching but NO horses are FLYING home at Del Mar.Raw times are 2-3 seconds off norm, thats 10 to 15 lengths in a game often decided by a nose.Running styles aside, you can time the races with a sun dial and thats NOT racing.

You guys that QUOTE \"like it\" don\'t even know why, except for the animal loons that have more regard for the horses than the bettors, I DON\'T!!

Good Luck,

Mike

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

Glad to hear you are taking a break from the \"hacking and whacking\" to be at Saratoga.  I will be there this weekend as well.  From Friday to at least Sunday, maybe Monday.  I will be at the Carolina Barbecue where the Tgraph seminar is on Saturday and Sunday.  Hopefully will see you there.

Your points on poly are noted and I guess I am swimming upstream, but as long as there are dirt tracks, those tracks will get my action, not the poly tracks.  

When no dirt tracks are left, maybe I will take up golf......

[jimbo66]

Sorry, I have to add one more post as well.  If horses were running to form on the poly, then so be it, it wouldn\'t matter to this bettor whether the final time was 1:08 or 1:14 for 6 furlongs.  Hell, if you look at some of Jerry\'s older posts about \"are race horses getting faster\", you have to admit that you can at least make a very good case that final times are controlled by track cushion on dirt tracks.  

But from what this bettor has seen, the races are not formful and I don\'t think the figures are holding up as well. People can disagree with that and I guess since P-Dub cashed a few tickets last week at Delmar, so he is a fan of it.  But from what I saw, particularly at Keenland, the races were farcical at times.  At one point something like 3 out of 90 races were won from the front.  I don\'t want races to be \"wire to wire\" all the time, no serious Thorograph player would, since speed biased tracks don\'t produce formful results either (look at the old Keenland speed highway), but 3 out of 90 is not right.  When the horses that go to the lead and run slow paces and save all the ground, get passed by horses with inferior figures that are also 8 wide on the final turn, then results are not normal.  

Ok, I shut up now.  Thank god there is no talk of Saratoga going to Poly.

[richiebee]

Jimbo:

 If the day ever comes, I think you will find golf every bit as
aggravating/gratifying as the \"sport of kings\". And golf is a pursuit
that a father and son can enjoy together for years and years.

 My final observation on synthetic is that the opening week of Del Mar featured
3 $100 plus mutuels all on the synthetic surface. I am fairly certain, without
doing the research, that there were entire meets at Del Mar where there weren\'t
3 $100 winners.

 I wouldn\'t be surprised if even the poly proponents such as P-Dub are treading
lightly, waiting to see a larger sample.

 Hoping for good weather and great racing this weekend