Preakness......rubber meets the road

[MO]

Yea, but as a musician I\'m expected to improvise.

[fkach]

>In Jerry\'s mind he did.

If Solis had only saved ground.<

The advantage of having more speed and saving ground is often offset by being used harder early to get better position.

The advantage of relaxing early is often offset by ground loss and other trouble.  

I don\'t see how you can evaluate horses without looking at both.

In any event, IMO, a review of the races at Belmont on that June day would leave little doubt to any unbiased observer that EG had the best of it on that track the way it was playing. Horses were making huge wide sweeping moves all day long (even more often than usual for Belmont in those days). To me, it was pretty clear that SS was the better horse no matter what the figures said or what happened at 12F on EG\'s \"rigged\" biased home track. ;-)

[marcus]

nothing like giving deferance to the \"ensamble\" arrangment  ...  speaking of history , i belive SS repeat\'s his 2 yo pattern , and the other fast ones back up at least a  point or two , or three - specially if they start slugging it out early  . if one can get their \"price\" , the race looks as playable as a george philipp telemann minuet composition in G major  ...

[magicnight]

P-Dub;

By \"argument\" I meant only that the rivalry evoked - and continues to evoke - passionate barroom arguments that are both unsolvable and everlasting. And the 1989 TC campaign does not bring back \"painful memories\" ... watching EG put SS away at the top of the stretch and draw off to win by 8 is a very pleasant memory, thank you. The point of the post was that the four races were compelling precisely because the two horses were both so good and special, AND, because of the various circumstances under which the races were run. Sorry if you could not savvy that. I\'ll try to be clearer in the future.

So, it\'s not fair that EG won at Belmont with its wide-sweeping turns and an outside bias? But is is fair if SS wins over (very slow) CD slop that EG clearly detested, or, by a nose over the rail/speed-biased Pimlico strip while Pat Day rode the most boneheaded race of his entire career? You say EG had it \"his way\" in the Belmont. OK. I suggest that the circumstances above are tantamount to SS having it \"his way\" at CD and Pim. Where does that leave us?

I could not find the \"mile-and-a-half-horse\" quote in NY Times archives. Could have been in the Form, or in the News or the Post ... or, perhaps my recall is faulty.

I will grant you that the BC at Gulfstream was - effectively - the rubber match, and that SS won that one handily (over a speed-favoring surface with a brilliant ride by McCarron). I will also grant you that SS was the handier, more flexible and adaptive horse, and that it is logical to assert that this makes him a \"better\" racehorse than EG. But - and this is the basis of the \"argument\" - you will never be able to convince me that SS on his best day, was faster than EG on his best day. And I know I will never be able to convince you of the reverse. Which is why exchanges like this will go on as long as there remains people who were lucky enough to be racing fans in 1989.

Cheers!

Bob

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

When you consider the Easy Goer / Sunday Silence races a couple things stand out.

One of course is the margins of victory. They certainly paid the Whittingham connections 1st place in two of the close ones, but a jump past the wire in both of those races Easy Goer was three lengths clear.

Sunday Silence was the clearly superior horse in one race. Easy Goer was the vastly superior horse in another, then there were two very close events. Add up the beaten lengths and Easy Goer was the clear victor, yet on the scorecard after 4 rounds it said 3-1 for Sunday Silence.  Any knowledgeable viewer of racing has to know that circumstances can always alter the outcome of a race, yet the superior animal is apparent to the practiced eye. Sunday is fortunate it wasn\'t a nine inning game. When you add up Triple Crown Misses, Sunday missed his by more than Easy Goer did.

Speaking of Triple Crowns, anyone think Street Sense needs another rail ride to win round 2?

CtC

magicnight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love how this argument will last forever.
>
> P-Dub, by \"completely his own way\" you mean ...
> what, exactly? 12 furlongs? How many lengths did
> SS lose by that day? Seem to remember a fella by
> the name of Whittingham saying something about EG
> \"being the real mile-and-a-half horse\".
>
> Why do people always have to trash one or the
> other? I loved EG but that doesn\'t mean I have to
> disparage SS. On the contrary. I\'m happy that they
> were both fortunate enough to wind up in the best
> of barns and make it through their 3YO seasons OK.
> Had either one taken a wrong step anywhere along
> the road to CD the other would have been an easy
> triple crown winner. I\'m happier that we got the
> mixed, more compelling result.
>
> There have been 11 TC winners. But how many racing
> rivalries have been anywheres near compelling as
> the four races between those two? We - and racing
> history - are both richer for the rivalry.

[P-Dub]

Chuckles,
You have written many thoughtful pieces lately.

Too bad you\'re back to drinking the EG kool-aid.

Adding up beaten lengths is ridiculous. Last time we\'ll go back over this and I\'m sorry I answered the question in the first place. ( your childish condescension being ignored)

- he was beaten in the Derrby decisively

- beaten in the Preakness whereby EG had the ENTIRE STRETCH RUN to go past him. Blame Day all you want, SS outgamed him....simple as that.

- Belmont has been talked about.  If you want to stamp that race, with those circumstances, as the definitive race in the series then you are back to being one of the biggest idiots around here.

- Classic: McCarron had EG measured the whole time. Again, they race 1 1/4 miles.....not 1 1/4 miles plus 5 jumps past the wire. Losers always like to point out the spot where the loser finally passes the winner.....funny how its always past the finish (winning) line.  

Knowledgeable viewer, practiced eye............who the hell do you think you are??  We have to listen to you ad nauseum crow about hitting the Derby,  which apparently makes you the most knowledge and practiced eye watcher around.

How much did you crow about nailing the Derby, Preakness, and Classic in 1989??  My guess...is that you didn\'t.  Drink a little more whine.

Magicnight,
Nice response...at least I can respect your opinion. It was a lot of fun during that year to watch 2 great horses. SS is right at the top of my favorite horse list. He\'s sired some pretty good ones too. Regards....

[streetbull]

Ronwar wrote   \" I do not think we\'ve seen his very best yet.\"  

Regarding Street Sense...  I also think that SS will pair up and move up in the Preakness....  

In the Tampa.. Street Sense and AGS ding donged thru the best late pace move from all of the Derby prep races this year leading up to the Derby..

In the Kentucky Derby, we all saw that huge move from 19th place to catch up to Hard Spun almost at the mile mark....  This was Street Sense early speed race....Thus the Preakness will be his \"race\".....



Street Sense\'s prep races somewhat reminds me of Afleet Alex from two years ago.....

Afleet Alex ran his sustain race in the Arkansas Derby and ran too close to the hot pace in the Kentucky Derby to finish third.....

Then in the Preakness..he move up and ran his race there and in the Belmont.....Wow..Some trainers have the confidence to map their three year olds to win the Kentucky Derby off their pair up races.....

[streetbull]

PDub wrote:

Classic: McCarron had EG measured the whole time. Again, they race 1 1/4 miles.....not 1 1/4 miles plus 5 jumps past the wire. Losers always like to point out the spot where the loser finally passes the winner.....funny how its always past the finish (winning) line.

Great point....

I always like to use past patterns to evaluate present races....This debate probrably stir up memories of the great battles between Affirmed and Alydar......I think that the consensus grew to a crescendo prior to the Belmont that Alydar was finally win that race... But Affirmed proved otherwise.....

I really thought that the connections of Easy Goer really blew their campaign or repeated the same mistakes that the connections of Turkoman committed prior the Breeder\'s Cup Classic....Their mistake???

If the 1 1/4 Classic was their objectives...Both ran their horses in a mile and half race prior to the Classic by running in the Jockey Gold Cup when the race was run at a mile and a half dulling the early speed for the classic race in the Breeders.....

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

1st Off, I did well upon that Belmont in 1989 and it counts as one of my long line of Belmont scores. I would have preferred that Le Voyager hang on for 2nd however and he almost did. I will inform you about my recent Belmont history so you know I don\'t purport to be perfect in the Triple Crown Races all the time. I just think that I\'m the best all around Triple Crown handicapper I\'ve ever run across and if asserting such makes it about me I can\'t do anything about that. It\'s speaking the truth as I perceive it and I believe my insight into the Triple Crown makes me uniquely competent to voice an educated opinion upon how the steeds stack up against one another in their respective years. It is my strength and I believe you can judge it upon my Triple Crown success.

Now the bad news to make you feel good,

2006 - Passed the Belmont, because the horses running in it were mundane
2005 - Cashed Afleet Alex and Andromedias in the Perfecta
2004 - Selected Birdstone as the Perfecta horse and had the others in but failed to consider Smarty getting beat and I lost.
2003 - Lost on Funny Cide
2002 - Lost on War Emblem

FYI thats 5 years, 4 Wagered Belmonts, 1 Cash. I\'m only hitting at Supertrainer stats in recent Belmonts.....25%

I won\'t talk about Belmonts in the 90\'s. You wouldn\'t believe it anyway.

Back to the Topic at hand. Easy Goer was a superior horse. BC Day at Gulfstream was a speed strip and Easy Goer had trip problems and was the best horse though he didnt ring the pari mutual bell. Those things happen.

What you need to consider Dub is Sunday Silence\'s final race. It was a loss  at 10 poles. Sunday Silence went out a loser and it steamed Charlie to no end. He had him cranked and he lost. By the Way Charlie thought Easy Goer was too much hoss at 12 panels. He stated so and of course he was correct. Sunday never would have taken Easygoer at 12 marks. Just wasnt in the cards.

The second thing you need to consider is the same horse that beat sent Sunday Silence home a loser also beat Easy Goer. Between them both they were 0-2 against him. Though Easy was working towards better things when he lost and was getting to him late in a short race. Coincidentally that horse was sired by Alydar too and familarity with that part of the game is another tool where I separate myself from the crowd. To them and guys like you its all a guess. Tough work guessing isnt it?

When you win its not crowing, its a conclusion and thats the beauty of this game. We predict the future when we win this game and we generally don\'t have to wait months or years for that future and validation upon our insight. It doesnt hurt to perceive well or to insist upon good odds when that perception cannot be validated with science. It also doesnt hurt to know a good horse as early as its 2YO year.

Now lets win us a Preakness. My goal this year is the Trifecta in each Triple Crown event. a Trifecta Triple. I think its possible.

p.s. Easy went out a Grade I winner.

CtC

[Lance]

\"Coincidentally that horse was sired by Alydar too and familarity with that part of the game is another tool where I separate myself from the crowd. To them and guys like you its all a guess. Tough work guessing isnt it?\"

For what it\'s worth, Sunday Silence was giving Criminal Type four pounds when the latter beat him by all of six inches in what was to be SS\'s final career start. Criminal Type went on to win the Eclipse Award for Horse of the Year.

Easy Goer was a wonderful, wonderful horse, but Sunday Silence had his number on three of four occasions for one very simple reason in my opinion: he was more athletic and thus better on the turns, leaving Easy Goer with too much to do in the lane. The one time EG beat him, it was on a course with wide, sweeping turns -- turns that negated SS\'s athletic advantage.

Just my take. Cheers.

[spa]

Easy Goer had very bad ankles..................

[P-Dub]

spa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Easy Goer had very bad ankles..................


And Gale Sayers had very bad knees. Its one reason that,  despite his brilliance, he isn\'t mentioned as one of the greatest of all time. Spectacular in his day for sure, but he isn\'t mentioned as better than Jim Brown, Simpson, etc... despite his athletic brilliance.

Funny how nobody has mentioned the fact that SS had his knee scoped.

I guess results don\'t matter, just opinions.

Next thing you know, Chuckles will tell me the Bears are better than the Colts. His reasoning???  It was rainy, and even though he played crappy.....that Grossman sure is better than Manning because his trained football eyes say so.  Who cares what the scoreboard has winning.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

This is a nice photo.

 http://cgi.ebay.com/Criminal-Type-Sunday-Silence-Housebuster-Blood-Horse_W0QQitemZ8776909227QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting


Easy Goer missed twice by less than Sunday Silence lost to Criminal Type. A loss is a loss. The trick is determining the best horse.

Those colors are Calumet before Lundy decided Alydar was worth more dead than alive. Alydar was the anti Osama bin Laden. You see, to some, that one is worth more Alive than Dead.

That nimble turn thing never registered with me. Goer outnimbled SS in the Preakness and Pat Day put him in relax mode and allowed SS to come back. SS was a game horse no doubt about it. The post wire gallop out proved to me Pat Day had made a mistake.

Pat found traffic in the BC Classic and gave Goer a breather on a speed strip when he needed to hang close, they did get away a little from him on the last turn. I guess its all based upon that.



The Derby was not Goers track. Derby Goo was like Poly to him, it evened the vast ability gap.

Lance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Coincidentally that horse was sired by Alydar too
> and familarity with that part of the game is
> another tool where I separate myself from the
> crowd. To them and guys like you its all a guess.
> Tough work guessing isnt it?\"
>
> For what it\'s worth, Sunday Silence was giving
> Criminal Type four pounds when the latter beat him
> by all of six inches in what was to be SS\'s final
> career start. Criminal Type went on to win the
> Eclipse Award for Horse of the Year.
>
> Easy Goer was a wonderful, wonderful horse, but
> Sunday Silence had his number on three of four
> occasions for one very simple reason in my
> opinion: he was more athletic and thus better on
> the turns, leaving Easy Goer with too much to do
> in the lane. The one time EG beat him, it was on a
> course with wide, sweeping turns -- turns that
> negated SS\'s athletic advantage.
>
> Just my take. Cheers.

[Lance]

Re. the Preakness: I guess we all see things differently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSaQPrMS0RQ

EG rushes past SS on the backstretch -- on the straightaway -- and SS has to take up slightly. On the turn, when EG could have put the race away after SS had to check momentarily -- SS makes up the gap in the blink of an eye, and then they run stride for stride through the lane. That\'s the athleticism I\'m referring to. Like I said, we all see things differently.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Lance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re. the Preakness: I guess we all see things
> differently...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSaQPrMS0RQ
>
> EG rushes past SS on the backstretch -- on the
> straightaway -- and SS has to take up slightly.

Watched it on your You Tube link. Great Race even all these years later. I never see the slightest impediment for either. What I see is Valenzeula riding SS hard after Goer makes what today looks like a premature move. Easy Goer was actually a faster horse at any fraction, but I knew that before the Classics.

> the turn, when EG could have put the race away
> after SS had to check momentarily

Once again on the check I have absolutely no idea what you\'re talking about.

 -- SS makes up
> the gap in the blink of an eye, and then they run
> stride for stride through the lane. That\'s the
> athleticism I\'m referring to. Like I said, we all
> see things differently.

When you look for fractional accelleration note Goers first pass of SS. Goers last quarter or so in the Belmont or Goers charge in the Classic.

Good Horses both, one could go further and was more explosive is all.