Teflon Todd

[jma11473]

I just wanted to say that this thread is great stuff. Hopefully a year from now we will be able to say there finally was some progress made. If only some of the people here were in charge of things, the racing world would be a lot better off. I\'m trying to keep positive, but it\'s not easy.

[sighthound]

>>2-- One of the mistakes racing has made is to go too far in the direction you >>want to go-- it markets itself as a sport.

I personally thought \"Go, Baby, Go!\" was ill-conceived and trite at best

I agree with all you say regarding takeout, handle, rebates, poker as a model, the importance of the gambler sustaining the business. All of it is rock-solid and rooted in firm reality.

That primary focus, and change as you discuss, is needed.

But I disagree that horse racing, in the past thirty years, has ever tried to really reach out, in a systematic way, to non-gamblers.  Why? That\'s me.  Or was me. Loved the sport, loved the horses, followed as much as I could as closely as I could - found handicapping comments and flat back-page recitation of results boring.

I remembered tonight, as a teenager who only saw racing yearly on TV as the Derby, buying a subscription to The Blood Horse (or whatever it was called at the time?).  It wasn\'t what I was looking for, it didn\'t keep me in the sport, racing faded out of interest in favor of other horse sports that were more readily accessible to me as an onlooker who could follow along.

In the world of the racing Czars, can there be a focus to try and get the public involved in what used to be the number one followed sport in the country?  Do those days have to be gone forever?  

KEE is jam-packed with tailgating, over-dressed college kids at the hottest place to be seen in town.  They gamble little now, they won\'t increase that much as they pay off college and start families and buy houses  ... but if we can keep them in the sport?

[sighthound]

>> Since the two biggest Track Mgmt companies are publically traded (Magna and Churchill) has anybody looked into what kind of exposure they may have under Sarbanes-Oxley by not having enough controls in place to effectively protect the integrity of the outcome of their races.

You rock.

[richiebee]

Another thought on the \"Horseplayer Rights\" movement:

As an alternative to a boycott, form an organization, sort of like a
Horseplayer\'s Guild, and wait until its size, in terms of number of members and
the amount which these members wager, is rather significant.

THEN, once the group is organized and its strength recognized, approach the
various tracks and racing organizations. Let it be known to these organizations
that members of the Guild are only willing to wager at tracks which meet
certain standards re: strict enforcement of medication rules, lowered takeout
(especially on multiple race wagers) and increased information available to
horseplayers with regards to the physical condition of runners and the
equipment that they are using. And throw in better treatment of backstretch
employees, which always trickles down to result in better treatment of race
horses.

If a publication such as DRF or a TV network such as TVG could be affiliated
with the Guild, tracks meeting Guild standards would be afforded the benefit
of increased coverage in these media.

In days of old I would be more than willing to carry the banner for a Guild
such as this; at my current age it is more likely that I could be found napping
somewhere under said banner.

[Thehoarsehorseplayer]

Well, it certainly seems to me a Horseplayer\'s Guild website is the way to go.

A site that would be self-supported by horseplayers and provide a forum for articulating and debating ideas, high lighting issues, polling member\'s opinions, tracking issues, contacting officials,  publishing replies, etc. could have the potential of creating an institution formidable enough to demand change from the industry.

But it has to be an independent institution.  Because all the present instituions whether it be the  Breeders Association, The Racing Form, th NTRA, or any of the individual track managements are quite contendly part of the problem.  They all got theirs, why foment change.

[marcus]

richiebee - the pretty excellent breakdown of stategy and the roll a guild might play definately qualifes you for executive level status and exemmption from manditory attendence at  protest march\'s , and the same applies as well for thehoarsehorseplayer - for his vg+ website idea and JB  too for affording all of us this oppertunity to learn and share views on this and the many other pertinent issue\'s in horse racing ...

[TGJB]

Richie-- it may turn out that boards like this one (and others) are the first stirrings of exactly that kind of thing. The internet makes it a whole lot easier to reach and organize people (see: politics).

I wanna be Jefferson. Who wants Paul Revere?

[bobphilo]

Jerry, The Jefferson role would fit you nicely, given your libertatarian views.
I\'ll take the hot-head John Adams since my post suggesting the power of an organized bettor boycott got this whole ball rolling.

Bob

[NoCarolinaTony]

Hey I\'ll take Sam Adams (not the football player but the Brewer).

NC Tony

[fkach]

Shouldn\'t there be some differentiation between type of drug use and intent.
 
1. Legal and illegal performance enhancers that can impact race results and the breeding industry.
 
2. Legal drugs used for the treatment of horses in training that are illegal race day.
 
3. Legal drugs used for the treatment of horses in training that are illegal race day that produced a trace positive at levels that probably did not impact performance and weren\'t intended to do so anyway (typically errors, misunderstandings, irresponsible/incompetent workers etc...)  

The punishment should probably fit the crime.
 
I realize some people object to treating horses for minor pain, soreness, and other conditions the way professional athletes are treated. However, I think the solution to this is mostly a matter of having high standards for which horses can actually run despite some physical issues as determined by track veterinarians of high integrity.
 
I also don\'t think drugs should be as big a problem for gamblers as is being implied. A high percentage of my own bets are on horses trained by people that are regularly accused of questionable practices. I spend a lot of time analyzing the methods, strengths, weaknesses, and betting patterns of high percentage trainers. As a result, I often have an edge over handicappers that rely on measuring performance alone. Of course, those that know exactly when a horse is being drugged have an even bigger edge, but I\'ve never been one to complain about winning just because someone else is winning more.  I\'m not condoning it, but if drugs are the reality and you want to play, you might as well play a winning game until the issue is resolved.

[richiebee]

Fkach:

I agree with almost all of your observations, as I did with the observations of
Alan Pincus in his letter published in DRF on December 31. (Mr. Pincus is
apparently an attorney representing some PA trainers in ongoing medication
cases). A \"witch hunt\" is not a good scenario for Racing.

I also agree with your comment that one way to play this game is to track the
high volume, high percentage trainers closely, and to determine what their best
moves are. (One of my favorite bet againsts is the steep Dutrow dropper,
especially when ridden by an apprentice or Rudy Rodriquez. The public still
seems to overbet these animals against all reason.)

I believe that a lot of the anger expressed on this board comes not from the
fact that \"cheating\" is rampant, but rather from the fact that when cheaters
are caught, they are not penalized in such a manner that the penalty has a
deterrent effect.

Totally unrelated, totally awesome: The University of Michigan Marching Band
just performed a Led Zeppelin medley at halftime of the Rose Bowl. Brilliant!

[bobphilo]

There are always those that try to minimize the harm that this plague of illegal drugs does to racing. No matter that honest trainers that don't juice are being driven out of the game. No matter that someone trying to handicap honestly is being cheated. No matter that the public thinks that anyone involved with racing is a degenerate. No matter that horses running on illegal painkillers are breaking down in alarming numbers (racing's other major problem) and jockeys are put at increased risk of death and paralysis. As long as some of us can get our slice of this dirty pie, it's not so bad.

There has been much positive talk here lately of an organized guild of horseplayers to fight this illegal drug use. Such an organization would lose all credibility, as well as any moral standing, with horseplayers boasting about how they are profiting from the practices of these cheats. Such remarks play into the perception that bettors are a bunch of amoral degenerates, not very concerned about illegal and immoral practices of some trainers, as long as they can also profit from them. This would destroy the legitimacy of any horseplayers organization claiming it's fighting for positive changes in the game.

Bob

[marcus]

sorry i missed that 1/2 time show - i was making coffee becouse the game was putting me to sleep alright but getting the led out on new years day is the way to go  , and to the same beat and cadence as the rocky theme i bet - you got to love it ...

individuals who belive that they are standing on high moral ground when egauging in inuendo and name calling against those who would look closely at trainer patterns when handicapping a horse race are in a tenious position and it does seem close to \" internet mc carthyism \" and \" witch hunts \" - i never liked cotton mather either and he surely wasn\'t no joshua  ...


collective gains by a handicappers guild or association can not be made in ernest ( or begin to even just getting a \" foot hold \" on the juicing issue ) with the \" my way or the highway \" attitude in it\'s charter . an effective handicappers guild or association , though must be diverse , must also think as equally dynamic ...

[NoCarolinaTony]

Dear Bob,

You and I have had this debate before. Why am I or anyone who factors in trainer patterns,(so called drug guys or not) called \"cheaters\" instead of astute?

Why should I lose money on any given day I choose to play. It\'s not my fault that cheating exists, or drugs are being used. At this point it\'s a theory or speculation or inuendo, but these guys have not been caught with the so called smoking gun yet, and thus allowed to keep on keeping on. My only stake in the matter is funding a parimutuel pool. My job as I understand it is to make money as best I can and use whatever information I have at my access to help me make money. if that is not my job to try to make money, then what the hell am I playing this game for in the first place?

If Your opinion would be such that I best not bet at all,  then we should all not bet at all, thereby not funding any parimutuel pool of suspected cheaters. I could go along with that approach , however, until a commitment is made, I am going to try to make money when I am betting. If that means factoring in innuendo about trainers who may help a horse perform better what am I supposed to do? No one is sending me checks from the racing industry.

This whole topic sucks quite frankly.

It is what it is. I personally side on the one system for all jurisdictions, better testing, harsher punishments, but total ban to just hay and oates doesn\'t seem quite practical. Ask any trainer. Otherwise we should just discontinue Horseracing as we know it today. Cut back the number of tracks, races etc, and go to a much more centralized racing system where most everyone around the country is betting on a highly regulated and Federally Managed racing industry (Similar to an NFL type Franchise for each track). Less racing, less races, more centralized simulcasting, centralized vetrinarians supplied by the \"league\".

Who is fighting for the horses racing at the smaller circuits like Buelah Park and Penn National ? Those horse that run on those circuits 20-40 times a year are hurting animals and they need help via legal medicines. This is not an easy issue. Allowance & Stakes Horses vs Cheap claimers should all be treated the same way? If not we are hippocrates too.

Bottom line Bob, your moral approach to wagering conflicts with the concept of wagering and winning. Your approach on how we should treat horses is on the money. Where do we go from here?

NC Tony

PS Bob when was the last time you went to a rack track live like AQu Inner..? How many Non-degenerates did you see vs the degenerates?  Most serious wagering is happening at home or via phone or internet. The Live tracks are not well kept,clean, well lit, or has TV\'s that have been manufactured in the 1990\'s or seats maintained anymore. Except for certain venues, CD, SAR, KEE, DMR, SA, and a few others, the best American society has to offer is not at the track, thus the deserved perception. Hey I don\'t mind hanging out with a few Degenerates,.....maybe a few of the ex Meadowlanders I used hang with remembers \"Alright Frankie\" or the Guy who used to yell after every race at old Keystone \"You got to bet the BLOOD\". Those guys made the track experience part of the fun of going live.....

[jd2131]

I think Dan Lauletta said it best in this past Mondays N.Y. Daily News:


MAKE SUSPENSIONS MEANINGFUL: For jockeys, eliminate graded stakes exceptions and expedite appeals so that riders cannot put off taking days until it suits their schedule. For trainers, get rid of the 60- and 90- day suspensions that are mostly cosmetic and try starting bans at one week, but make it so that any horse in that trainer\'s name at the time of the ruling is ineligible to race during the suspension. Ensure quick appeals and no graded stakes exemptions. This will get the attention of the owners and keep trainers fearful of being caught using anything illegal.

Something needs to be done ! When is Sciacca ever going to do his time,I seem to remember him testing positive  quite a long time ago.The appeal process is ridiculous...Shouldn\'t the vets also be held accountable.Something tells me Dutrow/Pletcher..share or once shared the same vet,as I now see him doing work in another Ny barn that seems to be on a streak..