Teflon Todd

[Silver Charm]

There should be someplace where players or any level of fan can go and see what kind of medication rules, testing and quarantine procedures each respective track and state has compared to one another.

There needs to a rating system similar to restaurants, two stars, five stars whatever. With five being top notch and one being bet at your own risk.

If analysts can rate stocks, high school recruits, restaurants, movies, hotels, resorts, why can\'t somebody publish a track by track comparison of testing policies and procedures and state by state comparisons of medication laws.

May the worst one lose!

Meanwhile Teflon Todd is no longer soaking up sun at the Green Monkey, but is now skiing the Swiss Alps, sailing the seven seas, getting laid in Monaco and the week after that climb the Wall of China. All the while training from his Iridium Satellite phone.

These suspensions are a bitch.......

[TGJB]

SC-- Excellent post. I would add that there has to be accountability at the top level, as well-- racetrack operators need to sign off on what\'s being done with testing at their tracks, and if it turns out they are not doing proper testing and enforcement, if positives are being buried or samples thrown away, heads should roll. As in, lawsuits.

There are rumblings not just here but other places as well. This will be an interesting year.

Hypothetically, let\'s look at the dynamics of a boycott of a particular track. Horseplayers as a group lose money, and the money they lose is the lifeblood of the industry-- it pays for purses, executive\'s salaries, etc. This means that if there is a boycott, horseplayers can hold out forever-- the longer they don\'t bet as a group, the more money they save. The track, on the other hand, can not exist without the bettors. So if a group of big bettors-- and hypothetically, high end data suppliers-- decided to do this, the track would eventually have to cave in.

Food for thought.

[bobphilo]

Tony, you make some good points and I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding in what we're trying to communicate to each other. It's late now but I will try to clear things up tomorrow.
Briefly, I do not object to bettors taking into account trainers' illegal drugging patterns in their handicapping. My objection is when the drug problem is characterized as "not important" and the poster goes on to brag about he happy he is to have such a rotten situation to profit from, rather than bemoan what he has to do to not lose money given the way things are. For the record, I enjoy the company of so-called "degenerates" whenever I go to the track. I say so-called because wearing a ridiculous tie or smoking a funny cigar those not fit my definition of a degenerate. I reserve that definition for those that drug horses and find it troubling that some not only deny it is a problem but find delight in the situation because they've found a way to profit from it.

Bob

[NoCarolinaTony]

Hey Bob...all is well ....I have no issue, was trying to have a little fun at the end. Everybody has to have a good racetrack character story to tell. Makes going to the track the experience it really is.

Your position is understood better.

Thanks,
Tony

[bobphilo]

Hi Tony,

Glad I could clear that up. Sorry I wasn\'t clearer in the first place.

My goal in life is to be the charecter in someone\'s racetrack story. LOL.

Bob

[fkach]

\"My objection is when the drug problem is characterized as "not important" and the poster goes on to brag about he happy he is to have such a rotten situation to profit from, rather than bemoan what he has to do to not lose money given the way things are.\"

1. As soon as you find someone that thinks illegal drug use in horseracing isn\'t a major problem for the entire industry let us know. You are certainly mischaracterizing everything I\'ve read here.

2. As soon as you find someone that is bragging that he\'s happy about the situation because he can profit from it let us know because you are certainly mischaracterizing everything I\'ve read here and specifically what I said.

As to adapting to a situation over which horseplayers have had no control to date, I\'ll repeat what I said before.

If you are going to play the game despite the drug use, you might as well try to play a winning one. It\'s not that difficult to beat this game using well researched trainer information as a supplement to the figures.

To those that are disgusted because they aren\'t winning and blame drugs for their losses, let me suggest that part of being a good horseplayer is adapting to the conditions (good or bad).

To those that are jealous that the crooks are making more money than you, just let it go and play to win yourself.

Obviously there are serious drug abuse problems that need to be addressed and corrected ASAP. Perhaps a boycott would help or even work.

In the mean time you might want to spend 50 hours or so looking over the PPs of all the horses trained by high percentage trainers and the stats provided by Thoro-Graph.

[bobphilo]

Fkach,

Here is quote from your own post:

"I also don\'t think drugs should be as big a problem for gamblers as is being implied"

How are we, as gamblers, supposed to gain credibility in our attempts to clean up the game while saying that drugs are not that big a problem? I'm glad you later came out and stated that drugs are a serious problem throughout the industry. That was not the impression you gave in the post I was referring to.

You than go on to say:

"A high percentage of my own bets are on horses trained by people that are regularly accused of questionable practices'...... Of course, those that know exactly when a horse is being drugged have an even bigger edge, but I\'ve never been one to complain about winning just because someone else is winning more. I\'m not condoning it, but if drugs are the reality and you want to play, you might as well play a winning game until the issue is resolved."

Not condoning it? It practically sounds like your touting it. As I explained to NC Tony, I am in no way criticizing horseplayers for having to factor in the reality of drug use into their handicapping, one would have to be a fool to ignore it. My point is that this should be viewed as a deplorable state of affairs rather than as a great money making opportunity. The central point of this thread was how sick we, as horseplayers, were of the "juicers" and what we can do if we organize into a group to rid the game of this plague. It does great disservice to such an effort and undermines how seriously we take this issue to make public statements that A) drugs are not that serious a problem and B) we see this as a great angle.
Spending hours studying trainer patterns will do nothing to fix the ultimate problem, drug use, which is the main point of this thread and by far the greater issue here.

Bob

[fkach]

\"How are we, as gamblers, supposed to gain credibility in our attempts to clean up the game while saying that drugs are not that big a problem? \"

\"The central point of this thread was how sick we, as horseplayers, were of the "juicers" and what we can do if we organize into a group to rid the game of this plague. It does great disservice to such an effort and undermines how seriously we take this issue to make public statements that A) drugs are not that serious a problem and B) we see this as a great angle. \"

You remind me of a lot of the politicians I so deeply despise. Not only do you want to change something everyone agrees needs to be changed, you want to suppress the truth, mischaracterize what people are saying by referring to single quotes without using other relevant comments, prevent people from discussing how to cope with the problem until it\'s solved, and prevent people from succeeding, all to advance your agenda.

People can be strongly opposed to illegal drugs because of the damage it\'s doing to the industry and more than willing to be active in implementing change, while coping with it in the mean time. That\'s where I have been coming from and it has been obvious every step of the way.

The simple fact of the matter is that illegal drug use is a huge problem for breeders, trainers, horse owners, the tracks etc... It\'s not nearly as big a problem for serious horseplayers as you are implying even if you don\'t like hearing the truth.

Handicappers have been studying trainers for decades. It\'s a fundamental aspect of the game.  Whether the \"first time\" Levine horse at Aqu that came from CA won by a block yesterday because of juice or because Levine is a great horseman doesn\'t matter to an informed and well rounded \"horseplayer\". Either way, he knew that even at 6-5 the horse was a good bet. It matters a lot to the other owners, trainers, tracks worried about public perception etc...

If you are going to gamble until the required changes are made, there\'s no reason to flush money down a rat hole or suppress honest discussion of how horseplayers can cope with the situation in the mean time.  We are allowed to be angry about the situation, work towards change, and continue winning money too.