Teflon Todd

[NoCarolinaTony]

Bob et al,

We go round and round on this specific topic. we have discussed it over and over again. All points are good and on point and the topic is worthy of discussion. But that is all we ever do. Discuss. Who is going to organize the effort?

Who is going to be the \"Watchdog\" group  or organisor of the effort for the bettors that has the influence power to make a boycott or whatever it is that is decided. Perhaps we should boycott one track per week,(No betting of any kind whatsoever at the designated track) to get the point across to the race tracks,jurisdictions, NTRA or whoever needs to get the point. it need to be public and visible. The issue needs to be brought out via the press (Do we really think the DRF will assist?).

Any other idea\'s?

NC Tony

[shanahan]

Tony - here\'s some starter ideas:

jerseys/t-shirts with NTRA on the front

1) \"Never Trust a Racing Authority\"

with your favorite trainer\'s name on back and # of suspensions.

ie - Norman - # 3
or,
 
2)  there was a shirt out \"keep drugs out of racing\", but I haven\'t seen one in a while.  

3)  if TG wants to be a sponsor, consider me a charter member for this stuff and would gladly help with design.  In fact, I\'m going to get something for opening wkend at OAK and see what response I get.

[TGJB]

I have been working on some things behind the scenes that could bear fruit on the drug question, we\'ll see. There are a few people in authority that really do care and get it, but the problem, even for them, is to some degree political, as well as legal (every time they come down on someone they end up in court, and that costs money). Yes, I know there are overriding issues more important, but as a practical matter they have to sell the ideas to a board.

The two things currently that offer an opportunity are a) the New York franchise being up for grabs, and b) the new position tracks are taking to throw people off without having to give a reason, on the basis of it being private property. The first is interesting because Spitzer likes to position himself as champion of the public interest, and the most leverage the public will ever have on whoever gets the franchise is before they get it. I\'m working on this, don\'t know how it will work out.

The second is interesting because it may make things a WHOLE lot simpler in dealing with cheaters. It would if I were running a track.

Re the boycott idea: a few years ago there was a boycott (against Golden Gate, I believe), and it was very effective-- the track caved. At the time I thought that was a watershed event. Because of the internet, and rebate shops, and outfits like ours, and e-mail, it is now relatively easy to find and reach a lot of bigger bettors and attempt to organize them. That\'s not an idea for now, and if it is done it has to be carefully thought out in terms of what the specific goal is and whether it can be accomplished. But it is something that can be done, and it may take some form of organization of horseplayers to effect change in this industry, and take it away from the Kentucky breeders. Those guys don\'t get it and they don\'t care-- their business is doing just fine.

[Michael D.]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been working on some things behind the
> scenes that could bear fruit on the drug question,
> we\'ll see. There are a few people in authority
> that really do care and get it, but the problem,
> even for them, is to some degree political, as
> well as legal (every time they come down on
> someone they end up in court, and that costs
> money). Yes, I know there are overriding issues
> more important, but as a practical matter they
> have to sell the ideas to a board.
>
> The two things currently that offer an opportunity
> are a) the New York franchise being up for grabs,
> and b) the new position tracks are taking to throw
> people off without having to give a reason, on the
> basis of it being private property. The first is
> interesting because Spitzer likes to position
> himself as champion of the public interest, and
> the most leverage the public will ever have on
> whoever gets the franchise is before they get it.
> I\'m working on this, don\'t know how it will work
> out.
>
> The second is interesting because it may make
> things a WHOLE lot simpler in dealing with
> cheaters. It would if I were running a track.
>
> Re the boycott idea: a few years ago there was a
> boycott (against Golden Gate, I believe), and it
> was very effective-- the track caved. At the time
> I thought that was a watershed event. Because of
> the internet, and rebate shops, and outfits like
> ours, and e-mail, it is now relatively easy to
> find and reach a lot of bigger bettors and attempt
> to organize them. That\'s not an idea for now, and
> if it is done it has to be carefully thought out
> in terms of what the specific goal is and whether
> it can be accomplished. But it is something that
> can be done, and it may take some form of
> organization of horseplayers to effect change in
> this industry, and take it away from the Kentucky
> breeders. Those guys don\'t get it and they don\'t
> care-- their business is doing just fine.

Jerry,

What is it that the breeders don\'t get?

[TGJB]

Michael-- just off the top of my head:

1-- The takeout is insanely high compared to other forms of gambling (you bet sports, you should know, and on-line poker is probably cheaper). An entire industry (rebating) has sprung up because the industry has no clue what it is doing, and rebaters are making a whole lot of money just for acting as middle men and giving customers what they need. That money could be staying in the industry.

2-- Cheating (drugs) is rampant, daily. The parimutuel pool is a market, and people with inside information (knowing who is drugged) are on a daily basis taking money out of the pockets of those participants in the marketplace that don\'t have the info. As I have pointed out recently to major entities, this is a moral issue for the industry, may be a legal one, and definitely is a practical one. There are many people who are playing less often (like myself), or have stopped entirely, because they think they are at a disadvantage.

3-- Slots etc. are a bandaid on a shotgun wound, fool\'s gold for horsemen. What happens when the state wants a higher percentage for education? What happens when they need more revenue, and start giving out franchises outside racetracks?

[Michael D.]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael-- just off the top of my head:
>
> 1-- The takeout is insanely high compared to other
> forms of gambling (you bet sports, you should
> know, and on-line poker is probably cheaper). An
> entire industry (rebating) has sprung up because
> the industry has no clue what it is doing, and
> rebaters are making a whole lot of money just for
> acting as middle men and giving customers what
> they need. That money could be staying in the
> industry.
>
> 2-- Cheating (drugs) is rampant, daily. The
> parimutuel pool is a market, and people with
> inside information (knowing who is drugged) are on
> a daily basis taking money out of the pockets of
> those participants in the marketplace that don\'t
> have the info. As I have pointed out recently to
> major entities, this is a moral issue for the
> industry, may be a legal one, and definitely is a
> practical one. There are many people who are
> playing less often (like myself), or have stopped
> entirely, because they think they are at a
> disadvantage.
>
> 3-- Slots etc. are a bandaid on a shotgun wound,
> fool\'s gold for horsemen. What happens when the
> state wants a higher percentage for education?
> What happens when they need more revenue, and
> start giving out franchises outside racetracks?


Jerry,

you blame all this on Ky breeders?

[Michael D.]

and re slots ...

definitely a band-aid.

problem is - Aqu won\'t be there in the year 2008 without slots.

got any other way to get 20,000 new yorkers out to that place every w/e?

could let it crumble and focus on making the Bel product better, but that would make too much sense, and, after all, this is new york state.

[TGJB]

Michael-- That group has control of and undue influence over racing, specifically the NTRA, BC, etc., and indirect influence over lots of other institutions (i.e. racetracks). There is an additional problem of some high level appointments at various places being patronage positions. The upshot is that the \"old\" industry institutions (including many tracks) are run by people who are not motivated to change things because they don\'t see the need for change (their end of the business is going great guns), and/or are not competent enough to do it.

The major breakthroughs in this industry are being accomplished by outside agents-- Pinnacle, Youbet, Betfair, rebate houses. They are what is forcing the industry to adjust, to the degree it understands and can.

The time is coming when we (horseplayers, owners, those of us who service and represent them) may have to take control of the game. Which unfortunately probably means a lot of work by me, since nobody else is in a position to, is competent, and gives a s--t, and I get tired just thinking about it, since I\'m working 6 days a week now. For a long time there was a danger that if someone like me tried to organize players we would lose distribution at the tracks and get blacklisted, but with most of our sales over the web that is no longer an issue-- the tracks need handle, and therefore need us a lot more than we need them. But I would still prefer not to have to be a driving force in this-- I would rather take my few days off and work on what I laughingly call my golf game.

[Josephus]

What we need are a series of \"expose\" articles done on TV, like 60 MINUTES, REAL SPORTS etc. and in regular daily newspapers, not the racing press.  The first question that has to be addressed is the \"so what\" question.  Why is the racing industry important?  How many people are involved in each state?  How much land? Greenspace? State wide economies? etc. How much is bet annually? Tie in racing\'s drug and steriod use with the Balco case.  Why is racing breeding cripples that can\'t make it out of their 3yo yr.?  Or, like The Green Monkey, not even making it to the races. Top money winning trainers getting days...imagine Joe Torre or Bill Parcells being suspended and the media storm that would result from that.  How breeding unsound horses  at astronomical prices strictly for speed, guarantees that drugs are going to be used.  You get the idea, there are issues and stories here for the mainstream media,but they are not doing their job as watchdogs, just like they missed the boat on the Iraq war build-up.

We need an advocate who can answer the \"so what\" question and educate and point mainstream media reporters (who are proably ignorant of the whole problem) in the right direction.

As Jerry said, I don\'t think reform is going to come from within the industry.  Too many people and institutions are on the gravy train and are going to squeeze \"every drop of the lemon\" until it runs dry.

[shanahan]

you are wayyyyy underestimating those of us who would gladly jump on the bandwagon to make the statement...JB - your # are the most expensive - maybe justifiably so - and you\'re biz is great, no?...I will follow your lead and gladly help market the cause...count me in on whatever you charge here.

[bobphilo]

Shanahan, good for you. I'll gladly join you in pledging my support. I know the members of my Yahoo Horses and Racing Forum would do so as well.
Jerry makes a good point that change will not come from the industry. It must be imposed from either law enforcement or pressure from those who are the financial support for the sport/industry – the bettors.
I'm heartened to hear that there are those in the game that care and that a boycott has worked in the past.

Jerry, I hear what you're saying about organizing bettors being a formidable task for any one man to do. I would not begrudge you the hard-earned free time you enjoy. However, you have a strong reputation in the sport and even in a limited role as consultant or spokesperson could have a profound influence. Count me and whatever Forum members I can recruit to support you in whatever capacity you decide you can contribute.

Bob

[richiebee]

Bob et al.

As NCT says we have argued this quite extensively and in an enlightened manner
for quite a while. The only change that has come is that all the usual suspects
have been given a slap on the wrist.

My feeling is that the only way to get the public and the non racing media
behind this issue is to portray the issue in terms of the mistreatment of
thoroughbreds. I do not think the public at large or the non racing media will
have much sympathy/empathy for a horseplayer (or a number of them) complaining
that their ROI is being lowered by the scourge of performance enhancing drugs.

[richiebee]

Michael:

       I think we agree on the fact that New York thoroughbred racing can only
support one of the two downstate white elephants, Aqueduct and Belmont.

       We disagree on which of the two is the more suitable facility to carry
NY racing into a new era. The truth is either of the 2 places would basically
have to be torn down and transformed into a smaller racino type facility.

       Aqueduct\'s location is every bit as desirable as Belmont\'s, and the
property on which Belmont sits could probably generate more revenue if the
state of NY could only figure out who owns the property.

       Modern sports stadiums built with bond proceeds have a planned lifespan
of about 20 years; racing fans such as myself get tied up in the history and
tradition of racing facilities and end up with oversized and obsolete tracks.

[marcus]

Excellent points being made here - fair to  say and deservedly so that the \"juice \" issue has dominated the TG board in 2006 . All the bases have pretty much been covered . It is true Jerry is one of the most single influencial persons sounding off on the matter in Racing and on the TG Board , but as we all understand , the task of solving Any problems within the racing industry is indeed an enormous one .

 The issue of Animal Rights and Thoroughbred Race Horse Abuse is an extremely viable appraoch - in a manner of speaking , if that ship can set sail then the financial aspect of the entire equation changes for everyone . In order to survive or even stay out of jail at that point , Owners , Trainers and Racing Circuts would have no choice but to defer on earning questionable revenues to remain on legitimate moral grounds with the general public .

It is a tough fight in taking on  the \"juicers\" but being able to make the Animal Rights/ Abuse tag stick will be alot easier and more plausible than forcing profound wholesale societal changes across the board and in racing ...  

I don\'t think Jerry working a 7th day each week is the answer either . Wagering Strikes  will have limited value here and present laws in racing are defintely working in the favor of those who are juicing , so I belive The Equine Abuse Angle has a good upside and the potential for solving a very pervasive problem  + I got Animal Rights at 2-5 in the morning line to being a major catylist in  putting things right again . Now all we need is more friends to come aboard and the band begins to play   ...

[Thehoarsehorseplayer]

It seems to me the easiest way to turn a Racino into a Casino is to spotlight the animal abuse issues in Racing.
Afterall, one could make the case that forcing horses to race is inherently abusive.
They get whipped, they spend hour after  monotonous hour in stalls, and after they show a propensity for bleeding while running they are given a diuretic  for the sole purpose of keeping them running.
And this whole notion of legal vs illegal drugs is nonsense from an animal abuse perspective.  If the drug is being administered for the purpose of allowing a horse to race--that is, if the horse would not need the drug if he didn\'t race--from an animal rights perspective it\'s abusive.
Elevate the issue to a national debate and horse racing is going to lose.  At the very least suffer a holyshit shiner of a public relations black eye.
No, in the end the only way for the industry to become more responsive to the needs of horseplayers is for horseplayers to exert their economic power.
But then, of course, getting horseplayers to agree to do anything is kind of like herding cats. (And only the power of the internet makes it possible.)
Still, my motto is: Horseplayers Unite. You have nothing to lose but less money.