Various

[TGJB]

Bit-- I assume the reference to Ms. Ross went to my earlier proclamation here of undying love (to say nothing of lust), and if anyone wants to see the perfect woman (at least to a guy from ages 18 to about 30), check out the scene with her, Newman, and the bicycle in Butch Cassidy. But the scene between Branagh and Thompson in Hank V is great (\"We are the makers of fashion\", and \"Take me, take a soldier. Take a soldier, take a King\"). Goldman is good, but no Willy Shake. And Branagh and Thompson should really get back together, so they can have careers again.

Don\'t know whether this is true, but I\'ve been told that some of the earlier film version of the play, starring Olivier, was censored (!!!-- this is Shakespeare we\'re talking about). It came out during or right after WWII, and some of the things Henry says in an earlier speech to get those under siege in a castle to give it up sounded too much like Nazi atrocities-- we\'ll crush your babies skulls, put them on spits, etc. Which brings us to Richard the \"Lion Hearted\"-- but that\'s another story.

Still grinning about LF as Falstaff. And Alydar/JJ has a little Hotspur in him...

SoCal-- Confusing is right, and not a further peep of explanation out of Jake. I have no idea what to make of it, or who actually should get credit for the claim, except I would take with a grain of salt any claims of \"sheet connection\" in the future. The problem Ragozin had in California (which LF does) back in 03 had to do with having 1 turn races too fast, relative to routes, and that wouldn\'t hurt them with this one. When I last looked it seemed they had made changes to fix the problem, which LF denied ever having.

CH and Bull-- Friedman and I were very good friends, and went to the track together hundreds of times. He was a very good guy (although a guy who worked for Ragozin for 25 years, since retired, vehemently disagrees with this). When I set up shop in 82, everything changed, and I became the devil. You guys only see what takes place publicly on the two boards, where I can refute allegations, but there was a 15 year stretch before that where some truly unconscionable stuff was directed my way on a daily basis in the field, and as I expressly said when we began this board, one of my aims was to get that stuff out in the open, where I could fight it. It worked-- the down side is that this place at times is a combat zone, but you almost never hear the kind of crap about us now that you saw on a regular basis just a few years ago.

Regarding making up-- a few years ago (I think 99), Len and I met in Union Square Park to discuss some kind of deal between the two companies (think Beckett and Henry II meeting on the plain). The first words out of Len\'s mouth were that he didn\'t know if they wanted to do a deal with someone of my \"moral character\". I calmy (really) asked him to provide me with an example of that character, and he brought up an incident from 1978 when, in Ragozin\'s office, I charged him a commission for advising on the claim of a horse he had an interest in, rather than giving him a freebie as a friend.

Then, about half an hour later, I informed him that an employee of theirs (Charlie Nebel, one of the ones we later caught on tape) was lying about us, in this case to the producer of the ABC Triple Crown telecasts, saying that we didn\'t use observers-- that we faked our ground. Len laughed, and said he believed it, Charlie didn\'t like me. I asked him if he would do something about it, and he said no, he had no interest.

So no, I don\'t think there will be kissing and making up any time soon.

[Bull]

Thanks for shedding some light on this, though you do not owe me or anyone else an explanation for your relationships. Your life is your life. As I said before, I did not know the whole story, and I am not trying to tell you how to live. You cleared it up nicely for me though, thank you.

Overlays to all and to all a good night!!!

-Bull

I\'m with everyone else in saying it\'s none of my business etc...

If I had to guess I would say that when you started TG he was probably hurt that you didn\'t ask him to be partners (assuming that\'s the case and assuming you guys were really close).

If you did ask him and/or discuss it he probably felt that your business was going to become a threat to his own livelihod and was upset that you put business before friendship.

No judgement here. Just trying to understand the response.

[TGJB]

LF wouldn\'t have left Ragozin, ever-- he thought that Len invented speed figures, and that no one else would ever be able to make ones as good, let alone an irresponsible young street kid he was going to the track with who had little formal education (worth noting that Ragozin, Beyer and Crist all went to Harvard). My nickname back in those days was \"The Kid\", and then Cauthen came along, and that was the end of that. LF was \"Sneakers\", because he always wore canvas tennis shoes, and his wardrobe went downhill from there.

[Boscar Obarra]

  \'Sneakers\' used to whip a wad of cash out of his pocket to bet that would choke a , well, you know.

   Those were the days when a sheet horse may have been 10-1, even better, and he\'d load up on exacta combinations at the $20 Exacta window.

   He dressed down, but he could have easily bought a  Mercedes for cash with the daily bankroll.

[SoCalMan2]

Apologies to everybody about what is obviously redboarding.

Also, no offense, Jerry, but maybe you are wrong about the sprint and route issue in California.  

If you look at the Musique Toujours Sheet they posted on the Ragozin site today, MT does NOT look like a logical claim off Ragozin sheets while he did look logical on Thorograph.  I am thinking the different treatment of routes and sprints could be the issue (and maybe instead of getting sprints too fast, they were getting routes too slow). I also find it very hard to believe that somebody counseled claiming Musique Toujours off the Ragozin sheet he had on the date he was claimed. Remember, you have to assume that you can only look at the figures before November 1 (obviously, nobody could have know the figure he would run the day he was claimed when they were making the decision to claim).  

It is pretty interesting how different the sheets are.  (one should look at both the Ragozin Sheet and the Thorograph sheet to follow this discussion).  

At the start of the horse\'s career, while he was sprinting, you had the horse 5 points slower than Ragozin (and, remember, usually your numbers are faster than Ragozin\'s).  Maybe this is Ragozin (or LF) making sprints too fast.  Then, when the horse starts routing, your figs are faster than Ragozin\'s (either things are normal -- or perhaps his routes are too slow?).  In a lot of cases the difference is as much as 5 points faster.

What is really significant to me is, off Ragozin, he was a horse that had an 11 top (three months before the claim), but the race before he was claimed was only a 12.5 -- a point and a half off his top.  This is not necessarily so healthy under the pattern reading school based on small differences which counsels being suspicious of a young lightly raced horse having so much trouble getting back to a top -- it looks like the \'11\' on August 20 really took it out of him (On the contrary, you had him following up his Aug 20 top with another forward move on Aug 31).    

Based on Friedman-type pattern reads, why claim this horse off this pattern on November 20?  Why decide to claim him then?  On August 31 (three months earlier), off Ragozin, the horse was coming off his top (the 11 on Aug 20) and his pattern looked much better AND you could have claimed him for only 32k.  Why wait 3 months, get a worse pattern, no improvement, and pay an extra 8 large for the horse?  Doesn\'t seem too logical to me.

On your sheets, the horse looked much healthier.  You had him making and pairing tops much more frequently (compare the July 20 figures and the August 31 figures between the two sheet makers). Most significantly, on October 31 (the race before Glassman claimed him), you had him making a big significant top with a trouble mark to boot -- this was a real good indication that he was moving forward. On that same race, Ragozin was giving him a figure slower than his top without any excuse either (and again, this was the horse\'s first two turn race at Santa Anita, maybe Ragozin/LF was making those too slow?).  To me, admittedly looking back, he looked like a live horse on Thorograph while on Ragozin, I wonder why anybody would have decided to claim him.

I really wonder who was behind the claim (and what product he or she was using when the decision was made). And, if it was a she, I want to meet her!

[TGJB]

SoCal-- I don\'t know who really was behind the claim or why they took him, but I have to say that is one sophisticated analysis, especially for a civilian. Anyone who wants to follow along can see the Ragozin sheets for the whole race with the numbers they ran, posted on their site. Our sheets are attached.

I\'m leaving soon, but I may get into this further tomorrow. Nice job.

http://www.thorograph.com/hold/musique.pdf

[Mall]

If you go to the GP site, in the news & events section, Richard Glassman, who is out of work & trying to become an LA cop, explains why he made the decision to claim the horse. Sheets had nothing whatsoever to do with it. As you will see, Glassman did not even talk to Sadler after he made his decision, but instead called the asst trainer, Larry Benabidez. He did, however, talk to Sadler before the GP race & was told that his horse didn\'t have a chance. So, the \"connection\" in this case exists because the guy who made the decision on his own called someone who was an asst to a trainer who has used or is using sheets in some unknown fashion & who thought the horse didn\'t belong in the race. Good thing the out of work guy didn\'t listen to the guy who provided the sheets with the \"connection\" they are hanging their hat on. It would have cost him, as you put it, 600 large. As Marc pointed out, you shouldn\'t believe all the crazy claims suppliers make after a tournament(or a $1 million stakes race). Especially, I would add, claims that insult your intelligence.

[SoCalMan2]

TGJB --

I will accept the backhanded compliment -- just remember, you pros need us civilian rank amateurs around so you have somebody to win off of!  Since this is the site that has already had me explaining that I am no Ethel Mertz, this must be progress.  Much warmer than your reception of me that last time I pointed out a superior aspect of your product over the competitor.

Mall -- I could not find the piece on Glassman you refer to.  Can you put a link here?  I know for sure the guy has had other horses -- and with trainers other than Sadler/Benabidez.   For all we know, he may be a lot more sophisticated than meets the eye.  Saying the guy is out of work and trying to become an LA Cop is probably true, but also probably not the complete story.  I read somewhere that he made money in the car business and retired.  I can\'t imagine out of work guys trying to pick up a job that pays less than 50 a year are maintaining a string of horses unless they have other means.  I suspect he is looking to become a cop for reasons other than the financial remuneration.  This board seems to have a lot of people who know people in the business -- maybe somebody out there can shed more light on this?

I will be absent from this board for a while, so silence from me does not mean anything over the next 4 days or so other than the fact that I do not carry my Thorograph bulletin board password around with me when I travel.

[Mall]

There is a lot more to the story. My idea was to not give it away entirely, but provide enough to get people interested enough to read it themselves. Although Mr Glassman is said to be \"retired\" from the car business, the fact that he could not come up with his half of the entry fees leads me to believe that he may not be trying to become a police officer for the fun of it. Also, I did not mean to suggest, nor do I believe, that he is unsophisticated. If anything, this score would seem to suggest just the opposite.   For reasons unknown, sometimes this works, & other times it doesn\'t, but here goes:
http://www.gulfstreampark.com/NewsEvents/SunshineMillions/Details/Classic.htm.

Now you have to tell me something when you get back. I know who she is, but never watched the show & don\'t get the reference to Ethel Mertz. I have seen the ubiquitous assembly line at the chocolate factory scene, but can\'t imagine how it could possibly apply in these circumstances. What do you mean by it?

[Silver Charm]

If Patriots head coach Bill Belichick has ever bought a set of SHEETS, can Jake and Eric take credit for winning The Super Bowl, assuming of course New England wins the game.

[xichibanx]

James Michelson, Jr. mentions his use of Thoro-Graph in the Youbet Newsletter.


http://www.youbet.com/newsletter/jmichelson.html

xichibanx

[TGJB]

SoCal-- I didn\'t call you an amateur, and I would certainly never call you rank. When I snapped at you the other time, I thought you were someone else. Not the Mertz guy.

In broad terms, you and Mall are in the same business, and have a similar style. Has anyone ever seen you two at the same time?

Sign in when you get back to the not-quite-as-evil-as-it-was empire. And listen-- do you want to take a shot at doing a ROTW some time? In fact, I\'ll make that offer to Derby 1592 as well. Chris?

Mall-- You might try the site search engine for Ethel Mertz. Beyond that, I can\'t help you with this one, so you might have to wait until SoCal is (insert Beatles title here), you don\'t know how lucky you are.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

You\'re link is dead Mall. I\'ll find it myself. I know how to Google.

I have to echo your recent sentiments. This board, though always good, has never been better.

SoCal2 and Derby, I for one would love to see your ROTW calls. TGJB has chosen wisely, as Kung Fu\'s mentor said to him. Now, when you can walk the length of rice paper, as delicate as dragonflywings

SoCal2, I really appreciated that Claim analysis. Very professional. I didn\'t refer to the Sheets in what I had to say about it, because I knew better, but in doing so you broke the Ragozin Crime Family.

CtC

[Mall]

At least it worked for me. When you get there you need to click on the 2nd item down, \"Ocala Breeders Classic Recap.\"
http://www.gulfstreampark.com/NewsEvents/SunshineMillions/

Based on the emails I received, you were one of the few who couldn\'t find it, but no matter, as maybe you know the whereabouts of one Phillip Baille, whose brother & sister took out an ad in today\'s drf to try to reach him re their parents\' 50th anniversary party in a few weeks. It\'s a good idea to peruse the ads every so often. You never know who might be trying to get in touch.