bc question

[vired]

why move the bc to churchill when the death per starts is higher than santa anita?  2.73 vs 2.04 per 1000 starts last year.

[twoshoes]

Or how about Belmont where those numbers were drastically different the last I read? \'The effectiveness of this approach is best reflected in the equine fatality rate at Belmont Park that was well below the national average of 1.68 deaths per 1,000 starters in 2018. At Belmont Park, there were six fatalities from 6,142 starters for a mark of .98 per 1,000 starters.\'

[BitPlayer]

Santa Anita will start running again about a month before Breeders Cup.  Given the current political environment in California and the likelihood that there will be at least one fatality during that month (not to mention any prior fatalities at Los Alamitos or Del Mar), how confident are you that Santa Anita will still be running on Breeders Cup weekend?  Plans have to be made.  Kentucky is a much safer bet.

[Strike]

All of us are reading everything printed about the horse deaths and Hollendorfer being banned at Santa Anita and Golden Gate. Anything I say can and will be criticized because there are many who want horse racing to permanently end -- others who just want the problems fixed (including me) and yes, even some who do not believe there is a problem.

What I do know after owning horses continuously since 1990 in Southern California -- the trainers know. They know when their horses are sound. They know when a horse \"has heat\" that requires vet inspection. They know when a horse is unsound. They know when a horse\'s attitude changes -- horse is angry, doesn\'t eat normally, has diarrhea -- they know everything.

In general, horses fracture because they are unsound. OK -- they were fracturing when there was ridiculous rain in LA and were running on sealed tracks -- that was a serious problem and I believe that practice is ending. They were also fracturing at Del Mar a few years ago when the turf course was replanted and racing began when there was not adequate grown grass and only water was used to try to soften the surface (shame on Del Mar).

The trainers need to learn to change their attitudes about working out and running unsound horses. The Stronach tracks also need to back off the pressure they place on trainers to fill races with a threat of losing stalls if they scratch a horse. I understand that practice has ended. The \"void claim\" rule should help along with independent vet exams but the trainers know the condition of their horses. The penalties need to be severe on the trainers who violate new rules in place (Hollendorfer) or our sport will end -- certainly in California.

On Thursday there is a scheduled meeting in New York to specifically discuss the BC location and should it move to Churchill. I predict they will leave it at Santa Anita. We will see.

[vired]

i agree with what u posted. esp the racing office trying to fill races. i posed the question because the death rate at cd is higher than sa. that leads me to believe theres more to this than we know.

[rezlegal]

Strike-I believe  the only conclusion any rational reader of your post can reach is that that California trainers ( or certain of them) are knowingly guilty of animal cruelty and the Stronach team are complicit in such guilt. I have zero quarrel with any of the conclusions you reach.If, as you state, “ the trainers know” and if, as you further state, “ Horses, fracture because they are unsound” there is no other conclusion to be reached. If you have such knowledge,  is it not reasonable to assume that the Stronach group and their racing office have equal knowledge and nevertheless press trainers to run. If so,  I would  need access to a legal research vehicle to find the number of wrongs- regulatory and otherwise- the Stronach group is guilty of. ( and this in a jurisdiction that by all accounts is tough on drug use). I have read the same “ stuff” we have all read and have no idea what Belinda Stronach’s  game plan is or whether she has her heart in the right place. However, based on the conclusions I reach from your own post, ( with which I have no quarrel), the Breeders cup folks would be nuts to run the BC at SA. The mere risk of a fatality with the history of this year is disqualifying from a rational business perspective.

[Strike]

I just got back from the Epsom Derby Festival -- only 2 days of racing. I also went to the Royal Ascot Festival -- only 5 days of racing. Our American racing is year round. I predict in 20 years our racing (if it still exists) will be much different.

For instance the cost to train and care for a horse in Southern California is ~$3,500 per month. That training bill is the same for a $10,000 claimer and a Grade 1 horse. The economics of the game are challenging for owners/trainers of horses that run for a low claiming tag. You basically need to win or maybe run second to pay the monthly bill if they run every month or 12 times a year.

Now, imagine your $10,000 claimer gets injured and stays in the barn (the wrong move). The financial reality crushes the owner. Send the horse to a farm (the right move) the costs are a lot smaller but still... . American horse racing needs to change and have much more compassion. From everyone -- owners, track operators, and especially from trainers. If you are in it to make money -- don\'t do it. Buy a boat or a set of golf clubs. I am hooked -- have been fortunate to have had some important horses along the way -- I don\'t play the low claiming game for the reason I mentioned. Just my view.

[Tavasco]

vired Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i agree with what u posted. esp the racing office
> trying to fill races. i posed the question because
> the death rate at cd is higher than sa. that leads
> me to believe theres more to this than we know.

As a horse player I\'m by nature somewhat speculative. I\'ve been contemplating Vired\'s notion that there must be something more to this?

What could Jerry Hollendorfer have done to warrant the retribution he was handed. Geez you\'d think he\'s a serial killer. But what does make sense?

Hollendorfer knows more than Stronach. Maybe not. Maybe Belinda knows more about equine health than Jerry. Maybe Ms. Stronach knows more about horse racing than Mr. Hollendorfer.

For my two cents, HOF horseman told trust fund baby that she didn\'t know sheet from shinola. So she did her best to fire him!

[Strike]

And, I have absolutely no quarrel with what you say. You reference \"rational business perspective.\" Unfortunately, that is lacking in the sport of horse racing. I guarantee you that Belinda and the Stronach Group executives know a lot more than I do. There is so little transparency. I was able to find a list of the names of the first 20 or so horses that died and most were homebreds -- low level claimers -- low level trainers. And, also Jerry. The common thread is they fracture. Not soft tissue damage -- tendons, ligaments. Fracture. How in the world does a horse fracture while jogging? Things really need to change.

[Bet Twice]

Agreed.  The rational business decision is to hold the BC elsewhere.  There are bound to be fatalities during the autumn meet, And god forbid if anyone breaks down during the BC.  That said, the industry isn’t known for making rational business decisions and who knows how politics will come in to play.  If they do move it, it will be interesting to see how they handle the logistics - a lot of loyal fans have made arrangements to be in California the first weekend in November.  Glad I haven’t pulled the trigger on the plane tickets yet.

[vired]

i have from very reliable sources info that jerry h.worked a horse without permission and broked down. i really like jerry h but if he did\'nt follow the rules then where are we? don\'t care where the bc is held. just scared that our great game is in big trouble

[Edgorman]

One of the lead stories on the BC telecasts will be about the breakdowns at SA.  
Both days, repeated on national TV. Allowing SA to be the backdrop to that coverage, while running the BC races there, is sheer lunacy.
The backdrop should be tractors and other large machines, tearing up the SA racing surface!!
The public needs to see that something is being done to address the problem.
Who are these decision makers that don’t see this??
If they decide to keep the BC at SA and a horse breaks down..............

[Rich Curtis]

\"What I do know after owning horses continuously since 1990 in Southern California -- the trainers know. They know when their horses are sound. They know when a horse \"has heat\" that requires vet inspection. They know when a horse is unsound. They know when a horse\'s attitude changes -- horse is angry, doesn\'t eat normally, has diarrhea -- they know everything.\"

Go to Equibase and read through a complete day of result charts. In particular, be sure to read the chart comment for the last-place finisher in each race.

If trainers know everything, this sport should be banned instantly.

[BitPlayer]

Interesting post.  I think any serious discussion of improving equine safety and welfare has to focus eventually on economics.  The claiming game seems like it is essentially a game of hot potato. Take the case of Kochees, who was claimed by Hollendorfer and eventually broke down while racing at Santa Anita.  A CNN article featured the following from the prior owner of Kochees:

Herbertson says he was about to give the 8-year-old horse -- a veteran in racing terms -- a break but decided to enter him in the claiming race in November. \"He definitely had some nicks and needed time off,\" Herbertson told CNN.

What the article does not mention is that Herbertson entered Kochees for $25K after racing him for 62.5K and 32K in his prior three races.  Sounds to me like he was trying to rid himself of the hot potato.  Hollendorfer bit.

Less attention-grabbing than the issue of on-track fatalities is the issue of after care.  What happens to all the horses who don\'t break down, but simply bow a tendon or cannot withstand the rigors of training?  It would be nice to think that they all find other occupations or at least a healthy farm life, but I doubt that is the case.

It seems to me that there needs to be a secure outlet for horses that have reached the end of their racing days, so that the last owner is not faced with either being stuck with a hot potato or taking steps that put the horse in jeopardy.  Perhaps there needs to be a requirement that thoroughbreds have the equivalent of prepaid long-term care insurance in order to be registered.  Putting this cost at the beginning of a horse\'s life rather than at the end would have the direct or indirect effect of shifting some of the burden to breeders and pinhookers, who I assume are actually profiting from the game.  It would also probably have the effect of reducing the foal crop and, indirectly, the number of races that are run, which I think is inevitable.

[Strike]

Rich Curtis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"What I do know after owning horses continuously
> since 1990 in Southern California -- the trainers
> know. They know when their horses are sound. They
> know when a horse \"has heat\" that requires vet
> inspection. They know when a horse is unsound.
> They know when a horse\'s attitude changes -- horse
> is angry, doesn\'t eat normally, has diarrhea --
> they know everything.\"
>
> Go to Equibase and read through a complete day of
> result charts. In particular, be sure to read the
> chart comment for the last-place finisher in each
> race.
>
> If trainers know everything, this sport should be
> banned instantly.


Well, I stand by what I said. Horse racing has been around a very long time. Change is difficult. The NFL made a dramatic turn in the right direction when they acknowledged the damage to players that concussions were causing. The league enacted many changes that possibly saved the sport. I wish there was one national authority to rule the sport of horse racing but there is not. It is up to the track owners and horse trainers and owners and vets and even legislators to enact the required changes to save this sport. For instance ban drugs that mask pain.

Do a little googling around about Dr Sue Stover -- veterinary doctor and PHD. She says the following -- \"Dr. Sue Stover, a professor and veterinarian from UC Davis, says that more than 85% of horses that break down on the track had a pre-existing issue that was exacerbated.\" (She is a badass authority on catastrophic breakdowns). Maybe more effort should be placed on examining the condition of a horse coming off a years\' layoff and dropping to the bottom level. If a horse is on the vets list maybe the horse needs to be examined closely before it works out (not just when it is entered in a race). Pretty common-sense stuff.

I hope I don\'t come off as speaking from a soapbox. That is not my intent. Horse racing has been part of my life for almost 30 years and is in my blood. In my opinion our eyes must be wide open. Now is the time to enact change.