Racing Don't Need This!

[miff]

Bloodhorse:

NY Lawmakers Hear Views on Internet Poker

New York\'s racetrack-based casino operators are urging state officials to go slow with any effort to legalize online poker and, if permitted, any internet poker program should be awarded only to the racinos and other land-based gambling facilities licensed in the state.

\"We\'re not here to say this will destroy racing or gaming as it exists. We are saying we should proceed carefully,\" James Featherstonhaugh, president of the New York Gaming Association, told lawmakers Sept. 9 during a Senate Racing and Wagering Committee hearing.

The hearing was called by Sen. John Bonacic, a Hudson Valley Republican who chairs the committee and is the sponsor of legislation introduced in May legalizing internet poker. The Bonacic bill does not limit online poker licenses to existing brick-and-mortar gambling facilities and it calls for a $10 million fee to be paid by the state in return for a 10-year license. There is no identical bill introduced yet in the Assembly and the administration of Gov. Andrew Cuomo has not yet advanced the issue either.

The racino trade group says New York\'s track-based casinos, which includes facilities at Aqueduct Racetrack and Finger Lakes Thoroughbred racetracks, provided nearly $900 million in revenue-sharing payments to the state last year and more than $5.5 billion since the first racino opened in 2004. Featherstonhaugh, an Albany lobbyist and part-owner of the Saratoga Casino and Raceway, said the state is the \"senior partner\" with existing racinos because of that revenue sharing arrangement and that Albany \"needs to be aware of and sensitive to protecting\" the funds that now flow from the track casinos.

New York is in the midst of an expansion of commercial casinos with real slot machines, unlike the video lottery terminals permitted at the racinos,as well as table games. The state on Sept. 10 is poised to approve regulations governing the operation of the new casinos, which sets the stage for the first three casino licenses to be awarded later this month. The state gaming commission has tentatively identified the first three sites in the southern Catskills, Schenectady, and the town of Tyre, which is located about a half-hour from Finger Lakes. A fourth is proposed for Tioga Downs racetrack, west of Binghamton, and three more licenses will not be awarded for at least several years. The commercial casino expansion was approved in a statewide referendum in 2013.

\"We certainly think we should not move forward with online poker or any expansion of gaming until the three authorized and sited casinos... are open and doing business,\" Featherstonhaugh said.

Bonacic\'s panel heard from representatives of MGM Resorts International, Caesars, and the Borgata Hotel Casino in Atlantic City. All three provided a similar theme: internet poker is already being played by numerous New Yorkers in an unregulated environment, there is money to be had for Albany in embracing the online game, and state officials should consider more than just poker if it goes the internet gambling route.

\"The internet is the future, not just for the gaming industry but for any industry,\" said John McManus, executive vice president and general counsel at MGM. He said having a \"safe and regulated\" online poker system in New York \"makes all the sense in the world.\"

Despite introducing legislation to legalize online poker, Bonacic told the hearing\'s participants that he is still in a fact-finding mode on the issue, and he did not close the door to additional online games or to limiting future licenses for internet gambling to brick-and-mortar casinos and racinos licensed by the state.

[johnnym]

I use to be affiliated with a couple of poker rooms,the writing was on the wall for this move for about 10\'years now.

[miff]

John,

Know quite a few horse players that also love poker/hold em. Does anyone feel that if online poker comes to the many States looking at it, the handle on racing will be adversely affected in a meaningful way?

Mike

[Topcat]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> Know quite a few horse players that also love
> poker/hold em. Does anyone feel that if online
> poker comes to the many States looking at it, the
> handle on racing will be adversely affected in a
> meaningful way?
>
> Mike


Fear it would be so . . .

[metroj]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> Know quite a few horse players that also love
> poker/hold em. Does anyone feel that if online
> poker comes to the many States looking at it, the
> handle on racing will be adversely affected in a
> meaningful way?
>
> Mike

Attendance for a nine race card last night at Mountaineer was 2,208, handle was $8,343.00.  Doubt many even saw a horse much less considered wagering on one.

[Topcat]

metroj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> miff Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > John,
> >
> > Know quite a few horse players that also love
> > poker/hold em. Does anyone feel that if online
> > poker comes to the many States looking at it,
> the
> > handle on racing will be adversely affected in
> a
> > meaningful way?
> >
> > Mike
>
> Attendance for a nine race card last night at
> Mountaineer was 2,208, handle was $8,343.00.
> Doubt many even saw a horse much less considered
> wagering on one.


Ontrack handle was <$9K?!!!!!

[P-Dub]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> Know quite a few horse players that also love
> poker/hold em. Does anyone feel that if online
> poker comes to the many States looking at it, the
> handle on racing will be adversely affected in a
> meaningful way?
>
> Mike

No.

Most poker players couldn\'t care less about horse racing. In my room, I can count on my shop teacher\'s left hand how many bet on horses.

[jerry]

If racing wants to compete, racing simply has to offer a better product. Until we come up with a better model than tracks competing against other tracks for survival, the quality of the product will continue to decline. Whatever happened to that \"Go Baby Go\" consortium? I can\'t even remember their name.

[rezlegal]

In my opinion the far bigger long term threat to horse racing is the inevitable  legalization of sports betting, which in my opinion will occur as soon the hypocritical professional leagues and NCAA figure out how to get their share of the handle such legalization would generate.The numbers sports betting generates in Las Vegas vs. betting on horse racing is huge. Putting draft kings and related existing sites aside, if some sort of sports betting on games were available, the 35-40 college games shown every Saturday on ESPN coupled with the NFL on Sunday would provide a very attractive alternative for those who enjoy betting.I see very few people in their 20\'s, 30\'s or 40\'s at Saratoga, Belmont, Las Vegas betting on horses. The Belaggio just redesigned its sports book and only a small section is now devoted to horse racing. While internet betting has been a boon for handle in horse racing, that will rapidly disappear if sports betting comes to the internet in states other than Nevada. (I still have no idea how the federal statute limiting the legalization of sports betting to only 4 states is constitutional.).

[jbelfior]

Handicapping thoroughbreds with some level of success requires intelligence, discipline, and work-- traits rarely found in today\'s youth.

They would prefer to mindlessly bet on Pats-Steelers without any clue of what zone blocking, a dime package, or what cover-2 means. They love betting sports because there\'s always the hope that the coin will comes up heads.

Same hope for the millions who pull levers all day/weekend. Mindless.

Btw: all the geniuses out there who bet the rent on over 52 1/2 tonight probably looking for the Pepto Bismol by now.

Good Luck,
Joe B

[Fairmount1]

jbelfior wrote:

Handicapping thoroughbreds with some level of success requires intelligence, discipline, and work-- traits rarely found in today\'s youth.

_________________________________

I think this is a broad, sweeping generalization but there is some merit in that combining these three traits is seen far less often in today\'s youth then even 10-15 years ago.  The intelligent kids want to find or know the answers FASTTT.  The kids willing to work today are often not the most intelligent kids.  And the disciplined youth....well they are all waiting to age to learn this trait.  Handicapping requires all three of these to be successful.  So, maybe with age today\'s youth will go the track......but

I recall hearing young people don\'t gamble on horses anymore when I was 21 and learning the game in earnest with every free moment possible.  I thought \"oh nonsense\" young people still are learning this game.  But I\'m in my late 30\'s now and there is no one younger than me and my best friend (my age) younger than us at the track except on the \"big days\" of racing whether local or national.  I\'ve seen some in the contest media coverage but otherwise it is rare.  

I think Sports betting at the track with table games could make a lethal business plan if they didn\'t have competition for that trifecta.  I don\'t bet on sports but I love sports as much as anyone except I\'ll watch horse racing primarily 99 times out of 100 where as most wouldn\'t prioritize that way.  I\'ve played poker but it contains none of the excitement of solving horse racing for me.  But I could see plenty of young people at the track playing a race on those \"Big days,\" losing or winning on a race, then sitting down for a few rounds of poker or other table games, while sneaking a peak at the Pats-Steelers game to see if their wager is alive on the over/under.  

What percentage of money do the whales contribute to the pools anyway?  Would they all gravitate to poker or sports betting as opposed to their horse racing wagers?  I don\'t know the answer but I doubt it.  

Racing is still a billion dollar business.  It is not a dying sport but it is contracting and shrinking and it needs to in order to create interest.  Churchill, I hate to say, is ahead of the curve on this.....the big days are all that matter to the bottom line when the rest of the product is abysmal.  And creating a big day experience that involves sports betting and table games including poker could be where successful tracks head in the next few decades (don\'t look to Illinois for that model though as they will continue to lag far, far, far back).

[BitPlayer]

Whales will go where the money is.  Interesting observation from The Wall Street Journal yesterday (behind pay wall):

Still, as the industry grows, daily fantasy companies face another risk: the possibility that increasingly sophisticated players using complicated statistical formulas will wipe out novices, say industry watchers like Ed Miller, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology-trained engineer and games strategist, and Daniel Singer, leader of McKinsey & Co.'s global sports and gaming practice.

In the first half of the 2015 Major League Baseball season, just 1.3% of daily fantasy-sports players won 91% of the profits, according to Mr. Singer.

"It's not what it pretends to be," Mr. Miller said in an interview. "It pretends to be, 'Hey pick your favorite players, spend a few bucks and root for them.' But if you pick your favorite players you will lose a lot of money."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/daily-fantasy-sports-operators-await-reality-check-1441835630

[P-Dub]

We\'ve been down this road before.

Legalizing sports betting will have a minimal effect on horse racing.  There are locals all over the place, as well as offshore outfits. Some legal, some not. People are wagering billions of dollars right now.

Fantasy Sports is a game for suckers.  The rake is prohibitive, the serious players have sophisticated programs to select the optimal lineups.  Sure, you may get lucky and have a lineup win a few bucks. You aren\'t winning a million like those dweebs on the commercials. A very small percentage of players win the large majority of the prize money. Its popular now, lets see how popular it is in a few years when people realize they aren\'t winning.

Most people lose betting on sports.  Its more entertainment than it is profitable. Its fun to watch a game with money riding on it. Same with Poker, most lose and the good players win.  Its entertainment, until you really can\'t afford it or just get tired of losing.

It isn\'t difficult to bet on a sporting event, just choose a side. It isn\'t hard to play poker, its just hard to win when the other players are better than you.

Horse racing is different.  You have to deal with odds, multiple horses per race (as opposed to 2 teams), multiple types of wagering (WPS< exacta, etc..).  It takes work to have any idea of what you are actually doing.

You can watch a ballgame for 2-3 hours.  You can sit down at a poker table and have a sociable experience with your fellow players. Horse racing? If you play semi regularly, you are by yourself in front of a computer screen.  You have to Reeeaaallllyyyy love horse racing to do that.

The problem isn\'t sports wagering being legalized, fantasy sports, etc.. I play poker, I wager on sports, I was in a fantasy football league for 20 years before stopping in 2007. I do all of the stuff that would supposedly kill off horse racing, yet if I could wager on only ONE of the above its horse racing.

I enjoy the intellectual challenge, I enjoy wagering against the masses, I enjoy the possibility of large payoffs. I enjoy the excitement of a horse race.

The problem with horse racing is that they have done a poor job of educating new customers. When I see these idiots on television spewing forth about a large P6 carryover, that is the last thing they should do. Its like fantasy sports,  a small percentage win the most money. Why does\'t TVG or HRTV produce a show that shows people the different ways to wager?  Bet construction, i.e how to put together a P3 or 4 ticket, how to construct a tri or super ticket. etc...How about introducing them to different products, there are many different products that people use. Quit cramming the DRF down their throats, its not an easy publication to learn.

There are many products that can help novice players that are intimidated by the DRF. TG is obviously one of them. The learning curve for reading those are a hell of a lot better than trying to decipher a DRF.  The daily product I use is a great product for getting to the heart of a race in minutes.  We need to show people an easier and faster way to handicap. That is the way things are today.

[Holybull1]

All my sports betting friends point to the 17-24%+ rake as to why they will not expand into horses.   I\'ve got no counter arguement.

[miff]

Hi Paul,

Racing has lost $5billion of handle from it\'s peak. Elvis has left the building. Many theories advanced from the economy to track/OTB closures etc.It is without question that some portion of the decline in handle is attributed to other forms of gambling.Whether poker,the explosion of Casinos across the country or Fantasy Sports betting,racing\'s handle has already been affected.

Fantasy Sports betting has Wall St/private equity NFL NBA and major networks looking closely. Growth rate of FS still exploding and projections have it\'s growth potential near $7 billion within 5 years, can\'t be good for future racing handle.Racing handle projections all neutral at best,no real upside.

Racing will never go under but to think that FS,legal sports betting, new Casinos in major cities won\'t hurt racing handle is wishful thinking.The question really is how much.

Mike