Vicars In Trouble - & so is the sport

[mbeychok]

So, I attended both the LA Derby and Risen Star. I saw two different horses on those days but they were both named Vicars In Trouble. Looked completely different and better yesterday and showed it on the track. Now, I know it could be because of his pattern - a huge number knocked him back a bit - coat was dull - didn\'t look good. Yesterday looked grand. So far so good. Nothing out of the ordinary.

But wait there is more. After his Risen Star race - which wasn\'t that bad - they shipped him to Florida to Mike Maker. Wait What?  They shipped a horse that had wintered for 4 months or more at FG to Gulf. WHY? To run in Fla Derby? He had 2 works over the GP strip and then they shipped back to Louisiana. Now, I\'m not suggesting anything nefarious here but can someone in the press please ask the question - (and if it has been asked and answered well - nevermind)EDIT - just read Privman\'s article in DRF and mentioned foot abcess>  why did you ship to Florida?  I heard - again unsubstantiated - that horse had a foot abcess and Maker wanted him in his barn in Florida to treat directly.

But, really as a player I think we should know this information. Maybe they wanted to train him over GP to see if he liked it to consider the Fla Derby? I don\'t know and apparently neither does anyone else. This is not sour grapes. I would never have played Vicar at that price. I just want to know and I think everyone should too.
michael

[Silver Charm]

Well said. He burned me too but after the PETA stuff would anyone expected to reading about a horse with maybe a Bad Foot running in a $Money$ race? And Maker is a bit of a miracle worker nowadays. Expect to see multiple TV commercials announcing the once-in-lifetime Sire Offer opportunities for this Louisiana Derby romping winner in around 10 months. That\'s what is all come down to anymore....

[miff]

Mike,


Agree,his Risen Star was not nearly as good as the fig he earned but the formula required adj for ground and he got saved, figuratively speaking.


For one thing, s--t eating grin or not,that owner is treacherous, that\'s documented.Florida very very liberal and has weak testing.Almost no OOC testing,lots of horse \"spas\" there also with many \"aides\".Weather is New Orleans not as reliable as south fl for training and that ship not real bad,a factor maybe.Foot problems can be devastating(see Shared Belief) and maybe connections called in one of the specialists to deal with it.Could also be all bull and they \'helped\' VIT with stuff, perhaps legal, or not.

Re the mystery of injuries, a players group that I speak for asked NY racing officials why ALL substantial health issues on racehorses are not disclosed to the public(most owners/trainers diabolically opposed to that disclosure)....no real answer to the request ever given.

Tell Pete Sr, I am writing to Esquire to nominate him for an emmy!

Mike

[TreadHead]

I\'m all for much greater disclosure for more medication and treatment information, hopefully that goes without saying.

But would it be that unusual for a horse to have an off race due to a foot abscess (and by off, it certainly fit his pattern fine, it was just uncharacteristic for him to not try to go to the front)... and then that same horse show up a month later with a foot in better shape and more able to run his race?

[touchgold]

seems to me, the only way to stop ramsey/maker is breeders cup style testing/monitoring. Ramsay 0-7 last year with 1 third. Pretty sure had no entries 2012.

[mbeychok]

I want to be clear. I am not accusing anyone of drugging etc. What I\'m concerned about is at the sport\'s biggest under the magnifying glass moment in recent history - we allow this to go on without putting it under the microscope and just ask a simple question - Why?  Why did he go to florida? simple.
michael

[touchgold]

well, I am just saying for someone who has been over 30% in kentucky/lousiana/florida, and probably 50% in the money, when horses are under 24 hour watch, he shoots a blank. 7 horses not a large sampling, I understand, but the last few years, his results have been pretty amazing

[bellsbendboy]

I can think of a dozen reasons why the horse was shipped to Florida, but cannot fathom any rational why the owner/trainer need to disclose that information to anyone.  

bbb

[TGJB]

AT BEST his fig yesterday was the same as his last.

Did the show cover the HPWS?

[miff]

Bell,

Would agree with the shipping thing,however it should be mandatory to report substantial injuries to the racing authorities.That info should then be published.


Mike

[TGJB]

Agree. And they do it in Hong Kong and Australia.

[mbeychok]

NO the show didn\'t cover the HPWS. Too bad. They were there shooting some pick up stuff on Wednesday but basically finished all episodes.

[mbeychok]

Seriously Bellesbendboy? We legally wager billions on horse racing and you don\'t think the owners need to disclose treatment or injuries. We illegally bet billions on football and the NFL requires disclosure of injuries AND the press asks penetrating questions about the treatment and the progress of injuries.

Who does it the right way?

[phil23]

I was bugging a ton of people on all week (and thanks to Steve byk for asking Priv about it on Friday\'s show) trying to find any info about how Vic was doing.(and yes this sort of thing should absolutely be mandated to be in the form). Knew about the abscess but obviously greatly concerned because he\'d missed a work and his last work, as same day as ARod\'s last, was 2 full seconds slower than Arod\'s.  It really struck as odd how both Maker and Ramsey were talking non stop the last 10 days or so about ARod and WeMArit/Bkitten but literally hardly a word (Ramsey mentioned the abcess briefly in an h.r.r.n. interview two weeks back) about Vic.

Obviously the concern was a horse with, as the ROTW points out, a great pattern and fast, but who was pushed into the race not really ready for it.

Thought (mild red board here, prepare yourselves) that if he ran great and won would set him up perfectly with fast, paired top for big day. He won alright but did he actually regress even with the reasonable margin of victory. That\'s why we come here, of course.

Which just proves the old adage, you can get what you want (he won), and still not be very happy (possible regression).

5 weeks to go.

[richiebee]

Mike:

The comparison between the NFL and Racing is an interesting one.

For years, NFL teams have used secrecy and deception about the physical
condition of their players to gain or maintain a competitive edge. Even now,
a large number of doubtful and questionable players listed during the week on
the injury reports end up playing in the games.

The NHL has an interesting approach, classifying all injuries into two types:
upper body injuries and lower body injuries.

For as long as claiming races (still the majority of the races run in the US)
have been run, the true condition of the runners has been concealed for the
purpose of gaining an advantage. I have seen trainers bandage horses in a way
which makes those horses look like they were a little off, or that made them
seem like they might have tendon or ankle problems. Once the time for
entering a claim for a horse has passed, the bandages are removed and all of
a sudden the horse is sound. I have seen trainers put vaseline on the knees
of horses to give the appearance that they were standing in an ice tub when
the fact is that they were not. I have seen trainers put flecks of mud or
poultice on a horse\'s legs to give the appearance that the horse spent its
non racing time in mud or poultice up to its ears when this was not the case.

These are just the ways I have seen sound horses seem dinged up (and I must
disclose that I spent a good deal of my time on the backstretch down on
Gentilly Blvd.) Of course there are even more ways to make a sore horse look
sound enough to be claimed, and this is where medication (legal, illegal,
grey area, whatever), fits in.

As has been said here many times, the full disclosure most horseplayers want
directly conflicts with the way the claiming game is played. I guess the
compromise would be to establish a separate protocol for horses nominated for
stakes.

As to Maker/Vicar, I can think of as many legitimate reasons that Maker would
want the horse in Florida as evil ones. If Maker or Ramsay answered the
question, to what extent would we go to affirm the veracity of the response?
What would be the penalty for lying?

The world of racing seems to be pulling ahead of the NFL in terms of
insuring the health and happiness of retired participants, thanks to the
appreciated efforts of folks such as yourself. The NFL and its players\' union
have a pretty miserable record with regards to retired players who have lived
with pain, dementia and the kind of desperation which in some cases has lead
to suicide, after their NFL years.

I believe that racing should take the next step: Two year old in training
sales held before May or June, and especially the sale and resale of
pinhooked horses, should be heavily surcharged, with the receipts going to
a) research into thoroughbred injuries; b) new testing protocols to level the
playing field; and c) thoroughbred retirement programs, because the whole
microindustry of 2YO in training sales and pinhooking produces large numbers
of early retirees.