MIKE MAKER-QUESTION FOR J.B.

[high roller]

Jerry - If they have such tough testing in Kentucky - How did Maker get so many big move-ups at Keenland?

[TGJB]

You think you\'re being a smartass, but that is the first really good question you asked. I\'ve been raising it all day. More on Ky testing tomorrow.

First run through-- Ramsey about 68pc new or paired tops at Kee. Roughly even split.

[high roller]

not being smartass - just holding you to a high standard

[Boscar Obarra]

Maker seems to be doing quite nicely so far at BEL.  Always nice to see consistency.

[vp612]

Look we have to establish something.Do we believe Maker is using something,?answer yes.At least I do.Once you take that leap I believe that it is something that doesn\'t show up.I f you believe in the 18 hour a day routine,that\'s fine ,I don\'t.It\'s that simple.

[TreadHead]

Ramsey with a win today from Ward and Chad Brown.  Is it the trainer?  Or the owner?  Is it really possible for one person to have so much superior horseflesh?

[TGJB]

Like I said, we ran it as Ramsey. We have to check it after the Derby when we have time, but at Kee 68% pairs or new tops, regardless of trainer.

[badride123]

Its possible mr ramsey surrounds himself w guys who are thr best at what they do.  Mikes the best off the claim.  Wesley is incredible w his babies as seen w another Ramsey today. Mr Ramsey will make a sire out of Talent Search now, just like he has w Kittens Joy.   Its probable that Mr Ramsey just runs where he should and his trainers are all aces.   Guy understands the game and spends money he\'s supposed to win

[JohnTChance]

The question: \"How did Maker [or ANY trainer] get so many moves ups?\" can only be answered by asking the trainer\'s vet. Tying the question to the trainer himself is the wrong approach. For one thing, the trainer is not looking over the shoulder of the vet for every injection every day in every stall for every horse. [When trainer Jane Cibelli says she didn\'t know what her vet, Orlando Paraliticci, was doing in an alleged event at Tampa Bay Downs recently, was she telling the truth? "Neither myself nor my assistants were in the barn when this supposedly took place," Cibelli said.] To a very great extent, the vets are on their own. So I suspect Mike Maker won\'t know. My approach would be to 1) Find out who the vet for the \"moved-up\" horse is... and ask him! Of course, that\'s like the Wizard of Oz asking Dorothy to bring him the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West. The vet\'s likely to tell you to buzz off. In light of that, the next step: 2) Ask the OWNER (or partnership manager) to show you the vet bills. Put them side by side with a sheet of the horse in question and see if there are any clues. Of course, THIS ALSO isn\'t likely to work, because the owners, just like the vets, will be tight lipped too! [I had a friend who owned a small part of a Patrick Biancone horse. He told me he once asked the partnership manager to see the vet bills (after all, he was paying for it!) and, suffice it to say that he was denied access in no uncertain terms. Anyway, maybe the trainer in question has an owner that\'s a progressive guy, perhaps a friend of the ThoroGraphs, that\'ll help you with your detective work. How \'bout Maker owner Dr. Kendall Hansen? Would he agree to give you the lifetime vet bills for his Maker-trained HANSEN? Haha. I won\'t hold my breath. But everybody can\'t clam up! There has to be some owners that come forth to help you! [By the way, I won\'t hold my breath if the mighty and wonderful Team Valor president was asked to show us all his horses vet bills! Ha ha! Could you imagine him showing us Julio Canani\'s vet bills way back when!? Or even his Derby winner\'s vet bills since birth!? I doubt he would be forthcoming.]

My bottom line here is... it\'s not the trainers - it\'s the vets, stupid. And we\'re all too stupid to ask THEM your question.

[TGJB]

You\'ve made your position clear. My understanding is you\'ve used Ragzoin a while, so you have some idea what is likely and what is not. When someone has a period like this after having MUCH worse stats for a long time (not bad, just MUCH worse than the crazy he\'s getting now), those of us who know something about probability draw conclusions.

You refused to deal with points like that which were made to you before and eventually forced me to toss you. Be smart. Either deal with stuff or drop it. The latter is a MUCH better idea.

[Fairmount1]

What scares me badride is you honestly believe this and thats your right.

[badride123]

Stats don\'t lie.  Wheres kitten joy on sire list?   What\'s maker off claim?  What\'s wesley w 2yo firsters?   How\'s ramsey sit on wins or owner money earned. What\'s incredible is you do not believe it

[TGJB]

There are two possibilities, and neither flatters you. The better one for you is you are playing games. The other is you actually don\'t understand that those things were all true when he wasn\'t getting results like this, like say 3 months ago.

Do not respond to this. I threw you off once and let you back, which I never do. If you respond to this you\'re gone and you won\'t be back.

[fjmb]

Stats don\'t lie = No they don\'t and JB is gathering the info to prove his point.

Where\'s Kitten Jouy on Sire List =  Ramsey basically owns all Kitten\'s horses

What Maker off the Claim = Makers claims for Ramsey

How Ramsey sits on wins or money earned = Ramsey\'s cheating, so obviously he\'s on top.

What\'s incredible you don\'t believe it = No, no one can.  Ramsey\'s just winning at an absurb clip regardless of the trainer.

See the pattern = Ramsey!!!  Follow the money trail is the answer, if you could.

[louisvilleguy1111]

If there was a way to show the font with clapping hands, that would be my response to the JB\'s last post...