Repole shuns Breeders Cup

[Niall]

So he isnt sending his horses because of the ban on lasix for 2 year olds. He does cite the \"unfairness\" of this policy as it relates to the wagering public. None of this is much of a surprise as the policy has been out there all year. To the point though, lasix off is somewhat of a new angle, at least in the US. How to account for??? Thoughts? As always, thanks ...

[Silver Charm]

Why not insist in the \"Win and Your In\" races they also be non-Lasix Events. Or if you do use lasix you dont get your trip bill paid for.

Honestly how many contenders does Repole have? Its a long trip and for NY based horses Gulfstream IS open in 30 days after Breeders Cup and there is a solid Aqe Meet thru Thanksgiving Weekend.

The Breeders Cup has large Purses, decides a lot of Championships, Calif gets good crowds and ensures great weather but there is lot that goes into going out there to just go out there.....

[Beau]

You may do just as good picking numbers out of a hat than handicapping how horses may react with no lasix.

[richiebee]

Beau:

With all due respect, I believe that the 2YO no lasix issue is being
overemphasized and overanalyzed. The information which one would want
to have is which 2YOs have actually bled significantly in a race or workout
and therefore actually need lasix (cue Sighthound reminding us that with modern
technology we can detect some degree of bleeding in almost all runners).

I do agree with Repole regarding the Santa Anitization of the BC. No reason
that the BC shouldn\'t be a \"roadshow\", as was the original intention.

[Beau]

Richie,

Are you subject to the information you say is needed? If so how can we all be subject to it?

If not it is a guessing game, to me anyways.

[miff]

Significant or otherwise, 2yr olds that are scoped after races by one major NY outfit(TAP) reportedly show some form of bleeding in the 90% range.Minor or major not broken out.Another unwanted variable for those of us that bet the $12+ billion p.a.They is no reason to discontinue a medication that is confirmed to help horses in several ways.The breed is corrupt for many reasons, lasix being the popular whipping boy now.

You can be fairly certain that you are going to bet on a non lasix treated horse that looks great going in and doesn\'t lift a hoof.Hopefully we wont see one  of the non lasix 2 yr olds bleeding profusely from the mouth/nose on National TV in two weeks.

It\'s a big deal for all players whether they know it or not.Very tough to ignore lasix off angle and can only wonder just what it may or may not mean.

[Flighted Iron]

Miff,

  The comparison between U.S. and Europe is bothersome in the sense that there\'s a misconception about Euro\'s not using Lasix. HAH!! It sounds so ridiculous allowing thoroughbreds to train on Lasix,but god forbid we use it raceday. Pretty much shoots down all the \"weakening the breed theorists\". Double
standard plain and simple . From a gambling standpoint I\'ll probably leave the
baby races alone unless I like a bomb against a big chalk FTNL.


Good Luck,
Flighted

[magicnight]

Flighted, what percentage of Euro horses train on Lasix? And where do you get this information?

[Flighted Iron]

Magic,

  Don\'t know the %\'s but here\'s one article.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/romans-in-defense-of-lasix/

 
Flighted

[sighthound]

Two-year-olds:  If never any lasix, what you see is what you get most likely.

If lasix previously used, then off:  I would be conservative and deduct 1-2 lengths from expectation of how the horse will run.

[Flighted Iron]

Magic,
 
   http://www.nytha.com/pdf/the_lasix_question.pdf

First article only inferred. This site made a claim in writing Europeans and the
use of Lasix in training.

I\'m for raceday use of Lasix. I\'ve seen some horses continue on despite epistaxis.

The rider dismounted
for he talked right
Blood stained silks
thoughout the night

Unseen efforts through gurgling throes
blood to the surface as the waves rose
this cant be right i told ya so\'s
eight undred percent beaten 3 lengths and a nose

[Beau]

What is the purpose behind banning LASIX for race day and not for training? Someone please explain this to me.

Is it Public perception? Really? Just because the \"L\" is not in the program, C\'mon, if that is the reason then the opponents need to do a huge publicity campaign getting the facts out about horses being able to train on LASIX but just not running with it on race day. Tell me how this helps the horse!

The drug is still being administered to the horse in doing so the Breeders can not say the breed will be stronger because they are not running with LASIX becuase they are training with it. SMH

Thanks

[magicnight]

Thanks, Flighted.

I wondered about the source of your information because your first post seemed to imply that there was an equivalence between Europe and the US when it came to training on Lasix. You wrote:

\"The comparison between U.S. and Europe is bothersome in the sense that there\'s a misconception about Euro\'s not using Lasix. HAH!! It sounds so ridiculous allowing thoroughbreds to train on Lasix,but god forbid we use it raceday. Pretty much shoots down all the \"weakening the breed theorists\". Double standard plain and simple\"

As Beau noted, it would seem both hypocritical and downright cruel to allow Lasix for training and to deny it for racing. But the evidence I\'ve seen suggests that the number of European horses who train on Lasix is, at the least, an immaterial number and, at the most, a very small minority.

In the UK, per a paragraph attributed to the British Horseracing Board, and posted to the Clean Horse Racing site:

http://www.cleanhorseracing.org/Default.asp?page=learnmore

"Over the last 10 years 5275 samples have been taken from racehorses in training by the regulator of horseracing. Medications have been detected in around 15% of these samples (some horses will be receiving more than one medication). The prevalence of findings of furosemide was 0.11%, i.e. it was detected in 6 horses. Furosemide is not allowed on raceday in Great Britain. Recent studies of all cases of visible bleeding from the nose after racing over the last 10 years by the University of Nottingham showed a prevalence of such epistaxis of 0.13% in flat racehorses, and that British trainers consistently chose to electively rest affected horses for longer that the statutory rest periods mandated in other racing jurisdictions."

Source: British Horseracing Authority

I found this from what seems to be a powerpoint presentation made by Denis Egan, the chief executive of the Irish Turf Club, at International Race Day Medication Summit, speaking for Irish racing:

\"➢   Less than 10% of horses receive Lasix in training\"

And Gina Rarick, writing in the NYT\'s \"Rail\" blog, quoted Criquette Head replying to the assertion that ... \"Europeans are hypocritical because they use all the same drugs, just not on race day\":

"This is completely, 100 percent false," said Christiane "Criquette" Head, president of the European Trainers Association and a top name in French racing for years. "I don't use Lasix in training and no one I know uses Lasix in training."

\"The list of who Head knows is long, starting with Andre Fabre, Alain Royer Dupre and her brother Freddie, who trained Goldikova to her 14 Group I victories. Goldikova raced drugfree around the world but did have Lasix for the last two of her three Breeders' Cup Mile victories in the United States, a move that left his sister slightly disappointed. "She didn't need it," Criquette Head said of the mare.\"

The blog post goes on to note that there are a few trainers that Ms Head apparently does not know, according to a vet from the provinces:

\"Jerome Seignot, a veterinarian in Maisons-Laffitte, a training center that is home to about 800 racehorses, said training on Lasix was not commonplace, although a few trainers in the bigger center of Chantilly, where about 3,000 horses train, did regularly use the drug.\"

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/race-day-medication-the-view-from-overseas/

To suggest that there is any sort of equivalence between the US and Europe when comes to the use of lasix is, I would contend, false.

Bob

[sighthound]

FYI - There may be a misunderstanding among some folks.  Horses in Europe and Australia do not train on lasix daily.  Neither do trainers in the USA.  There is no need for it going out for a daily gallop.  It\'s only used when the horse has a planned speed work. That\'s the same thing trainers here in the USA do.

Nobody \"trains\" on lasix daily anywhere in the world.  But yes, trainers often use it in the morning and \"train\" on lasix for speed work.

Yes, not all Euro/Australian trainers use it, but yes, it\'s use is very common to prevent bleeding during works.  If a horse bleeds, it\'s weeks to months off racing to let the lungs heal (scar) as best they can (and all damage is additive over time)

Yes, trainers may use lasix to prevent bleeding in speed training, and then not use it in a race, and yes, obviously that leaves the horse open to bleeding during the race.

Lasix is given 4 hours before a race or fast work, it\'s diuretic effect peaks in 1-2 hours, the horse pees a few times, then the drug \"use\" is done before the horse works fast in the morning or runs in a race.

[Beau]

Sight,

I should of worded my question better, as you state trainers only use lasix when working a horse for speed not during gallops. Thats what I meant to say. Whether its a speed work or a race what is the difference? I still do not understand the reasoning for banning lasix on race day when you can still use it to work a horse. How does that help a horse?

I am just a handicapper who is trying to make heads out of this.

Thanks,

Beau