Frankel sheet?

[phil23]

TGJB - Since he\'s not coming over this year and with him being the talk of racing, wondering if it\'d be possible, if it\'s not an insane amount of work, for a pro bono workup of Frankel\'s sheet?  Be cool to find out just how fast he has been running and if he is, as the Brits would have us believe, the best horse in decades.  If cannot be done no worries, just been wondering about his actual figs the last few days, as opposed to all the hype.

[sighthound]

Frankel has the biggest engine you\'ll see on a horse in years. And this was only his three-year-old year, he\'s not even a mature horse yet.

Here are the five wins in 2011 (turn off the sound, please, they didn\'t use the race calls)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwgRieXOo4

[P-Dub]

phil23 Wrote:
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> TGJB - Since he\'s not coming over this year and
> with him being the talk of racing, wondering if
> it\'d be possible, if it\'s not an insane amount of
> work, for a pro bono workup of Frankel\'s sheet?
> Be cool to find out just how fast he has been
> running and if he is, as the Brits would have us
> believe, the best horse in decades.  If cannot be
> done no worries, just been wondering about his
> actual figs the last few days, as opposed to all
> the hype.


Zenyatta and Goldikova had a lot of hype.  They also had figs that made people play against them.  They lived up to the hype.

I don\'t care if his figs aren\'t the greatest of all time.  He\'s shown his quality on the track, just like Zenyatta and Goldikova.

Are you saying these 2 mares aren\'t amongst the greatest because they didn\'t have superior figs??  If Frankel\'s figs don\'t blow you away, he isn\'t either??

[sighthound]

I think that in America, we tend to use figs more than horsemanship in handicapping.  That\'s probably due to our tracks being dirt and rather similar - it\'s easier.  Few handicappers in America bother to watch race replays, for example. They get all their information off a sheet.  Not by horsemanship.

To handicap on a variety of grass tracks, different shapes, uphill and down, from a good 3 to a 10, takes knowing what a particular horse prefers, the horses\' running style, etc (you may throw out a very good horse on an 8 if he\'s only won on 5-6\'s, for example) There are a lot more variables, and you have to know a bit of horsemanship regarding equipment changes, how conformation plays into specific course requirements, etc.  

That\'s why some American handicappers have so much trouble with artificial surfaces, I think - if you approach them as you\'d approach handicapping overseas, it\'s not difficult at all.  If you don\'t handicap that way, it is.  Just not your skill set.

That\'s why American handicappers are often lost in European and Australian racing.
Most American handicappers know how to handicap for one type of racing:  American speed dirt racing, which lends it\'s to figure calculations very well.  So that\'s what they depend upon to tell them how \"good\" a performance was.  They don\'t use their eyes.

Anyway:   Frankel is as outstanding a horse as Secretariat was.  Enjoy.

[BH]

http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/events/champions-day/frankel-a-star-who-got-the-stage-he-deserved-181011.html


http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing/events/champions-day/handicappers-corners-frankel-closing-in-on-all-time-gre-171011.html

there is also a useful link within the second article.

[sighthound]

Here\'s a short tape of Frankel (4) and Canford Cliffs (1) in the paddock before the Sussex Stakes at Goodwood this year, so you can try and get a look at this horse walking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiKKsTxG79w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tizaURg-xLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n083Sj7m1e0

[TGJB]

As I have said here a dozen times, there\'s a difference between ability and acomplishment. Which constitutes your basis for greatness determines who you think is great.

Goldikova has outstanding figures for a grass filly, among the very best ever.

If the Cards take the series they will be champions, but few will say they were the best team this year. They sure as hell weren\'t when they won a few years ago.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
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> As I have said here a dozen times, there\'s a
> difference between ability and acomplishment.
> Which constitutes your basis for greatness
> determines who you think is great.
>
> Goldikova has outstanding figures for a grass
> filly, among the very best ever.
>
> If the Cards take the series they will be
> champions, but few will say they were the best
> team this year. They sure as hell weren\'t when
> they won a few years ago.

Lebron James has a lot of ability, but hasn\'t accomplished winning a championship. I wouldn\'t call him great, others would.  He\'s a physical freak and can do many amazing things, but he is also lacking in things that I would consider before calling him great.

Why would the Cardinals not be considered the best team if they win the World Series??

[Rick B.]

P-Dub Wrote:
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> Why would the Cardinals not be considered the best
> team if they win the World Series??

For the same reason a t-bred shouldn\'t be named HOY after a weak year-long campaign, followed by one quick burst of significant effort.

(Full Disclosure: Big LaRussa fan, much respect for the Cards organization, but can\'t stand their overly self-entitled fans, who piss and moan like a bunch of babies any year they don\'t win the WS.)

[jimbo66]

Respectfully disagree Rick B.

Cardinal fans MUCH MUCH better than Yankee fans, Met fans, and the lowest form of all fans, Phillies fans.  

And I am a NJ/NYer who was born a die-hard Yankee fan.  Yankee fans are all about self-entitlement.  Much much more so than Cardinal fans.

[P-Dub]

Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why would the Cardinals not be considered the
> best
> > team if they win the World Series??
>
> For the same reason a t-bred shouldn\'t be named
> HOY after a weak year-long campaign, followed by
> one quick burst of significant effort.
>
> (Full Disclosure: Big LaRussa fan, much respect
> for the Cards organization, but can\'t stand their
> overly self-entitled fans, who piss and moan like
> a bunch of babies any year they don\'t win the WS.)

Quick burst of significant effort??

They won 90 games.
They led the NL in runs scored.
They went 6-3 during the regular season over the \"best team\" in the NL.
They beat the same \"best team\" in a playoff series, making them 9-5 overall against the perceived \"best team\".

Thats hardly a quick burst of significant effort.

Agree with Jimbo, you sure you weren\'t describing Yankees fans??

[TGJB]

Jimbo-- you beat me to it about Yankee fans. As a Met fan, I don\'t hate the Yanks, but I root against them because of the fans. Met fans can be annoying, but there ain\'t no way we have a sense of entitlement.

Pdub-- that\'s my point. If you use as the definition that accomplishment equals ability, there\'s no discussion. The point of having figures is that the two are not always the same.

1960 World Series is the gold standard of the best team not winning, but there have been plenty of others.

[P-Dub]

TGJB Wrote:
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> Jimbo-- you beat me to it about Yankee fans. As a
> Met fan, I don\'t hate the Yanks, but I root
> against them because of the fans. Met fans can be
> annoying, but there ain\'t no way we have a sense
> of entitlement.
>
> Pdub-- that\'s my point. If you use as the
> definition that accomplishment equals ability,
> there\'s no discussion. The point of having figures
> is that the two are not always the same.
>
> 1960 World Series is the gold standard of the best
> team not winning, but there have been plenty of
> others.


JB,

I wasn\'t saying accomplishment equals ability, I was referring to the meaning of the word great.

For me, greatness is a combination of ability and accomplishment. For horses, I don\'t think you need the absolute fastest figs to be deemed great. If you\'re in the ballpark, and have the accomplishments to back them up, then I think that qualifies.

There are still some people that think a certain Z horse isn\'t great.  I find that ridiculous.  They cite her figs. I refer to what she did on the track, her accomplishments in addition to her figs.  Just my opinion.

I beg of everyone, lets not start that debate all over again.  It was just an example.

[Rick B.]

P-Dub Wrote:
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> Quick burst of significant effort??
>
> They won 90 games.
> They led the NL in runs scored.
> They went 6-3 during the regular season over the
> \"best team\" in the NL.
>
> Thats hardly a quick burst of significant effort.

You are correct. Those are merely highlights from a season which even LaRussa described as \"maddeningly inconsistent\".

The Cards got hot late and carried it into playoffs -- that\'s the \"quick burst\" -- and it\'s all for naught if Atlanta doesn\'t soil their shorts the last 3 weeks of the season. Your \"best team\" backed into the wild card spot when Atlanta couldn\'t even salvage a win to force a one-game playoff! Sorry -- that might be incredible luck...but it ain\'t what I call \"best\".
>
> Agree with Jimbo, you sure you weren\'t describing
> Yankees fans??

Not exposed to Yanks fans, nor Mets, Phils, other east coast teams. Here in the Midwest, Cardinal fans arrogance far exceeds that of any other regional team.

[Flighted Iron]

Pdub,

Barry Sanders doesn\'t own a ring.Is he not great then?


flighted iron