Another batch of Jerry Cooneys goes down

[Leamas57]

What did she run this time, a 2 or a 3? She will not hit the board in the Breeder\'s Cup if she can barely beat these...

Leamas

[Silver Charm]

Probably and then we have horses Rachel is beating getting like Negative 3\'s.

[Leamas57]

I know, Silver. 1:45 is slow anywhere for 1 1/16th. The bias was probably slow and it often gets worse toward evening, but a good thing for her because she needed the heavy track it seems. They probably asked Moss how fast he wanted it considering it was like Derby Day out there today. My buddy had to wait 15 minutes to make a bet--in the 4th race!

Leamas

[smalltimer]

Name the 3 horses that are gonna beat her at 10f?

[Leamas57]

I will be glad to tell you when I see who is entered and how their form looks going into the race. She would not have caught Blame today even if the race had been 10 panels, I can tell you that.

[P-Dub]

Leamas57 Wrote:
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> What did she run this time, a 2 or a 3? She will
> not hit the board in the Breeder\'s Cup if she can
> barely beat these...
>
> Leamas


She didn\'t barely beat those horses. She cruised to the lead, maintained the lead, and when the other horse came up to her it was obvious she wasn\'t going by.

You want to talk about her \"number\" on a synthetic surface?? Hasn\'t this been discussed before?? Don\'t be ridiculous.

Her margins are deceiving. We\'ve heard this after every race, she barely won. She wins. If Smith wanted to win by more, he wouldn\'t have coasted home. Whats the point?? This race was at 1 1/16, and she doesn\'t seem too fond of that very quirky surface. You want to make assumptions on the BCC based on a 1 1/16 race over a weird DM surface??

Nice to see the haters and cynics are still around. As Smalltimer asked, name the 3 horses that keep her off the board?  I\'ll give you Blame, thats a very nice horse.  QR at 1 1/4??  Soft fractions and that horse still couldn\'t get home. The pace in The BCC will be stiffer than that.  I respect QR a lot, but he has still yet to win at the Classic distance.

You may not like her campaign, and you have a right not too.  But she doesn\'t make the schedule, she just shows up when asked. She has beaten every horse she has faced.

So other than Blame, name the other 2 horses that will beat her at 1 1/4??

[P-Dub]

Leamas57 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will be glad to tell you when I see who is
> entered and how their form looks going into the
> race. She would not have caught Blame today even
> if the race had been 10 panels, I can tell you
> that.


So you don\'t have any idea which horses will keep her off the board. I doubt that there will be any FTS in the Classic. Look around the racing landscape and tell us who beats her.  That is a really lame response.

[smalltimer]

There\'s always somebody out there for you guys.  First its Rachel, then its Quality Road, now it\'s Blame.  At this point, you can\'t name 3 horses that would beat her at 10 furlongs.  It should make for a great wagering opportunity if you can find 3 horses to beat her in the Classic.
As far as Rachel and QR, if they\'re both in the Classic, they\'ll be in a death-match for 9 furlongs before Zenyatta even comes along in the stretch.  That race won\'t even get interesting until the final 1/8th of a mile.

[Dana666]

Oh, gosh - the only good thing about Zenyatta eventually retiring is all these moronic comments will someday cease. The race she ran today was so incredibly hidden for how great it actually was (put a BTL! on the line Jerry!) -- first of all the horse she beat lost by a head to a champion last out - I suppose that counts for nothing??? Z is like eight wide running down the slowest paced mile and a 1/16 race in the country, giving weight, and she still cruises by with her ears pricked waiting for something to do. Her race today was as amazing as any she\'s ever run regardless of the number, hidden as usual on Polycrap. There aren\'t too many horses in the world who could have won like she did today - yet the stupidity on this board just keeps resonating. I\'ve only said this 1000X - you folks have no idea what you\'re are seeing, but you\'ll never see it again in history. Jerry Cooney??? More like Rocky Marciano! Peace out.

[P-Dub]

Dana,

We\'re wasting our time with the clueless.  They\'re the ones missing out.

[jimbo66]

Dana/P-Dub,

I think two points are different here.  I don\'t think 3 horses beat her at 1 1/4.  She is too consistent at \"running her race\", no matter the pace, distance or setup.  This makes her Zenyatta IMO.

But I respectfully disagree with your assessment of yesterday\'s race.  Despite my pre-race protest to not even watch the race, I was home, so I put it on.  If you watched it on TVG I don\'t blame you for thinking she had so much left, could have won  by more, etc.etc. Todd Schrupp and company are not good (I am being kind with that).  Smith got as hard into Zenyatta as I have seen him.  She was not pulling away at all the last 1/16th of a mile.  Rinterval ran a nice race, but she is a pretty common horse.  She at least one level behind a St. Trinian\'s. This looked to me to be one of Zenyatta\'s worst races.  

If we on this board are going to kill RAchel for only beating Queen Martha by 4 lengths, a head win over Rinterval can\'t be glorified as a huge win either.

To me, both races are emblematic of the same bigger point.  When you race nobody in non-competitive races, it is hard to quantify the performances.  THis is why both mares should be well beyond racing the Rintervals and Queen Marthas of the game.  It achieves nothing.

[smalltimer]

Jimbo,
I kind of agree with much of your post.  I watched Z\'s race also, and I thought she was fairly flat and could afford to be yesterday because of the lack of real competition.  Heading into the race, I was mildly concerned because that DelMar surface has been real funky (again) and the 8.5f is not Z\'s cup of tea, plus, I was afraid the 129#\'s from last race and Z really having to haul ass in the stretch to catch St. T was a recipe for a real flat effort. Yet, if she would have needed to be 2 lengths faster, it was probably there if Mike called on it.
I still am not able to get past the fact Z is a fully mature 6 year old and getting older every month.  At some point, her age will take a step or two from her.
I, for one was not bashing Rachel on her latest win.  I\'ve said all year that she just isn\'t \"right\", and I think she shows that everytime she runs. But, she is still a very elite racehorse.  I think the short list of horses that can beat her or make her run her eyeballs out, especially at 9f is QR, Blame, Life At Ten, St. T (if she had kept campaigning), Rail Trip and Zenyatta.  That\'s a pretty salty bunch, and she fits with any of them up to 9f.  I just think Rachel and QR in the same race would be devastating for either of them if they had to go another furlong with a couple of closers like Blame and Zenyatta really gearing up.
I\'m gonna agree with richie in that now I doubt Z will try the Beldame, it doesn\'t fit her best style, and I\'m sure Shireffs has said \"screw it\", I\'m gonna get her to the Classic and she prove herself AGAIN to those that continue to doubt her.
I almost can\'t wait for Z\'s career to end at Churchill.  There are a couple things that Mike told me about Z as far back as 3 years ago that are really playing out.  Mentally, she is a remarkable animal.    
Jimbo, what was your take on QR yesterday?  I know you\'re really high on him and stated that neither Rachel or Zenyatta could compete with him.  You still think that at 10f?  Despite QR\'s big negative numbers on TG, I think he\'s much ado about nothing when you\'re talking a 10f race with some real competition.
I still find it odd that Lookin at Lucky, Concorde Point, Champagne D\'Or with the synthetic backgrounds can ship East and kick ass even when their figures look weak. I live in Nebraska so no East/West bias here.
Have a good one

[Michael D.]

jimbo66 Wrote:
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> To me, both races are emblematic of the same
> bigger point.  When you race nobody in
> non-competitive races, it is hard to quantify the
> performances.  THis is why both mares should be
> well beyond racing the Rintervals and Queen
> Marthas of the game.  It achieves nothing.


I would disagree Jim. Zen has raced 18 times. She will have raced 20/21 times by the time it\'s over. Secretariat had 21 races. Zen is a 6 yr old mare prepping to defend her BC Classic title. Good enough for me.

I support Zen\'s career 100%. She is much, much larger than the average mare, and there is no evidence her bones are any stronger than those of a 16 hand horse. To get this unbelievable beauty to her 2nd BC Classic at age six after 20 races will have been a brilliant accomplishment by team Moss.

Could horse racing use a few Zen/RA races? Of course. But I\'m not willing to put the weight of the sport on the back of a 6 yr old mare.

[jimbo66]

Smalltimer,

I was extremely disappointed with Quality Road\'s race (I had no bet on or against him, but I am disappointed as somebody who thought QR was in the Ghostzapper class).

I don\'t know what to make of it.  I don\'t want to over-react, but the easiest conclusion to come to is that QR is not a true distance horse.  Gulfstream is often a glib surface where horses that are a bit distance challenged can get the longer distances.  Saratoga at 1 1/8 or a 1 /4 miles is always a true distance/stamina test.  

But with the slow pace that QR got, he was really supposed to \"open up\" on the far turn and spurt away.  He never looked like a winner from the top of the stretch to home.  Johnny V said he wasn\'t in the bridle and he drifted him wide on purpose turning for home because he knew he didn\'t have the usual \"monster\" underneath him.  

I think Blame is a nice horse, but not a monster, so the loss is pretty bad IMO.  I will be curious to see where QR shows up next.  If he races his normal big race next time out, he is still the horse to beat in the Classic, but he is a question mark for now.

Agree with you completely on QR and Rachel being in the same race setting it up for Zenyatta.  

I will go one step further.  If Life at Ten, Rachel and Zenyatta run in the Beldame, you could see the same effect with Life at Ten and Rachel hooking up around the half mile mark.

But it would still be a helluva race to see.

Michael D,

We will just have to agree to disagree.  Based on the campaign Zenyatta has had so far, I would have strongly preferred she stay retired.  She hasn\'t \"raced\" this year, she has gone on an extended retirement tour, competing against slow horses.  IT does nothing for me and I doubt I stand alone with that view.

Jim

[smalltimer]

Jimbo,
The shocking thing to me was the soft fractions QR set and then not opening up at the head of the stretch.  I felt going in that even spotting the weight QR would handle Blame by 4-5 lengths.  I don\'t do the TG numbers on my own, but its probable Blame ran his typical race and QR obviously wasn\'t on top of his game.
Maybe his old foot problem flared up during the race, or he may have put more into an earlier race than we thought.  
But, trust me jimbo, QR is a horse who senses a confident rival.  I still remember when he stuck his tail between his legs when he caught a look at Zenyatta last year prior to the Classic, that\'s when he started to mail it in mentally that day. Zenyatta, the times I\'ve seen her, will stare them down, stop right in front of them, intimidate them, etc, she is a bully with a huge ego.  She also has a trememdous will to win and it will take a poor trip or a great racehorse to beat her when the $ 5M is on the line at Churchill.  But, she\'s 6...
No one can argue that QR is about unbeatable at a mile or 8.5 furlongs, at 9f with the right type of pace attendance, I think he\'s very beatable as long as there is a legitimate closer who will continue to run the last 1/8th or so.
And I do agree with you that Blame is a real nice horse, but not a monster.  I think there are 2 or 3 horses from the West coast that will handle him at 9f or 10 furlongs.  Could be wrong...
One thing I\'ve learned about the really GOOD California horses, they seem to have a lot of gas in the tank come stretch time, I know those surfaces really build the stamina foundation and they\'re constantly working on \"different\" types of strips during the racing year so they keep having different type \"training\" methods thrust upon them. When the great ones adapt to that, they can really scoot in the late stages of races. Its like they are continually training their muscles to react to different type stresses depending on what type of synthetic they\'re training on.  The old saying, \"muscles are stupid, they do what you train them to do\" always applies with the real talented synthetic runners.  I spose its almost like they are cross-training all year long and then they go to a natural surface of turf or real dirt and adapt immediately. Its possible the smaller, intrinsic muscles in the rear, the upper legs and chest area are just really developed because the surface\'s seem to work these horses a little different than the conventional dirt does.    
I was disappointed QR lost yesterday because I really wanted Z to have a chance to eyeball him again in the paddock before the Classic, when she may have been the underdog.  
One other point and then I\'ll leave this alone.  With Rachel, I really don\'t think her connections want to try the Classic at 10f.  The problem is then Life at Ten and Devil May Care in the Distaff, that\'s no cup of tea either, right?
If QR makes the Classic, if there\'s not enough quality early speed in there to really make him work, he becomes a \"threat\" to win it.  If 3-4 top notch speed horses that can carry their speed for 8.5 or 9 furlongs show up, he\'ll have his work cut out.  Again, I could be wrong.  
Have a good one