TVG Today - Shirreffs......

[jimbo66]

Anybody else watching TVG today and getting these constant updates about whether John Shirreffs will or won\'t let Zenyatta run today against 5 slow outclassed horses.  This guy is just unbelievable.  Any doubts about whether it is him or Moss that is driving this second ridiculous campaign in a row of hers have to be quelled now.  it is Shirreffs.

How can he seriously be concerned about the track condition for Zenyatta when she is 10 lengths faster than anybody else in the race.  She would have to run in quicksand to lose.  \"he didn\'t like the track last night\", \" he didn\'t like the track at 6 am today\", \"he now likes the track at 10 am\".  He belongs on a soap opera.  Have we ever seen Asmussen do this with Rachel?  Have we ever seen any trainer do this with any horse (outside of very sloppy tracks, which is understandable).

Here is one hope that she doesn\'t run..........

Just to be clear, this is not a criticism of Zenyatta.  I am actually starting to believe what many of her fans on this board believe, which is that she is better than her figures suggest.  As such, I would love to see her compete in a race  where a negative 1 doesn\'t lay over the field.  But I just believe that Shirreffs won\'t allow it.  He is seemingly significantly more concerned with preserving her record by keeping her from racing any fast horse and of course, once again, staying in California.  

How many Zenyatta fans out there, if training Zenyatta, wouldn\'t be salivating to go after Rachel at 1 1/4 miles in the Personal Ensign, with RAchel seemingly not as good as last year and also competing at a distance she may not run her best race at?

[P-Dub]

Jimbo,

You know I\'m on the Z BAndwagon. I am disgusted by it all.  The comments, excuses, track laments, all of it.

Put her on a plane, go find Rachel or other quality horses, run her somewhere else. Never thought I would get bored watching Zenyatta, but today\'s race, for the first time, has me yawning.

I almost wish she had a loss on her record, so this obsession with staying undefeated wouldn\'t exist.

I want to see how great she is, and that means shipping, running in important stakes with meaningful competition. The BC Classic is NOT the only meaningful race during the year.  I don\'t buy the argument that he only needs to get her ready for the BCC. That is crap.

After this drubbing today, send her to Belmont, then Churchill.  These connections are robbing the fans from witnessing her brilliance. Really a shame.

[Silver Charm]

WOW I put this same post up last year for the same race and was run of the Board for 3 days.

You remember the one...The Big ZZZZZZZZZ.

They tested her in the Vanity last out while giving away significant weight. The West Coast Fans and Del Mar people love to see her so maybe its ok if she stays there for them. I see nothing wrong with this!

[P-Dub]

Different situation this year.

Last year\'s BC was in California, it made more sense to stay on synthetics and close to home.

This year\'s BC is at CD. East Coast and on dirt. Thats why this year\'s campaign is tougher to take.

[richiebee]

P-Dub and Others:

In terms of the record book, the only objective left for Zenyatta is to be named
HOY.

The only way she can be assured of this is to repeat in the BC Classic.

If she wins the BCC at CD and retires undefeated, she assumes legendary status.

[jimbo66]

P-Dub,

I hear you.  I was not on the Z-bandwagon last year, but have learned to really appreciate the horse this year, to the point where I am buying into what is usually a dumb thing to believe (that a horse could have run faster if they had to).

But let\'s see her race.  

Time is running out this year, but maybe common sense will prevail and we will get lucky in the Beldame and see a good race.

[richiebee]

I do not want to see them in the Beldame in what will likely be a 5 entry race,
though it would get interesting if one of the 5 is Devil May Care.

I would rather see them meet in the Breeder\'s Cup where if personal history is
any indication there will be thousands of dollars of P4 and P3 will pays on the
line (sadly most of these \"will pays\" turned into \"didn\'t pays\").

The Beldame is a one turn mile and an eighth. I do not think Shireffs would ship
all the way across country to run at one turn. Just my opinion.

I want to hear more about how Moss/Shireffs \"owe\" racing fans something. Zenyatta
is SIX years old; this is her FOURTH season of racing.

As I said to P-Dub, I want to see Zenyatta go into the BC Classic having won 19
lifetime races, 13 of which will have been G1. If she wins her second BC Classic,
she retires 20 for 20, having won 13 G1s including 3 BC races.

It will be nice to see that the thoroughbred racing and breeding industry, which
has been in a free fall for the last two decades, is still capable of producing a
specimen whose name will have to be put near the top of any list of all time
greats.

As for RA, I believe she is more effective than Zen (if RA is at her best) at
distances up to 9 furlongs. I do not need to see this on the track to convince
myself of this.

If RA has lost the proverbial step, would anyone be surprised to hear Jess Jackson
announce, after numerous press releases, that RA will be running in the BC
Ladies, and not the Classic??

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

If we lived in Roman times, would you have been the guy in the last row rooting for the lions against the christians?  

How you can seriously argue for more non-competitive races is beyond my ability to understand or rationalize. You really care about her \"record\" more than how it is achieved?  Maybe I should start a professional arm wrestling career and only armwrestle women under 115 pounds.  (not a chauvinist remark, I promise)

The \"classic distance\" for Fillies and Mares, in our country, in this time period, is  1 1/8 miles.  You really don\'t want to see the two best mares of the last 30 years meet in a race at that distance (apologies to Personal Ensign).  Instead you want to see Zenyatta race in the Ladie\'s Secrt, on poly, against Rinterval again?  And the reason is that it sets up a better bet in the Breeders Cup?  

I don\'t know about \"owe it to racing\", although it isn\'t a bad argument.  How about \"owe it to Zenyatta\'s legacy\".  For her true fans, many on this board, they will still love her even though she doesn\'t race in competitive races.  But there are a whole bunch of people out there who will have memories of a very very consistent horse, who was extremely conservatively managed.  Not of a great horse who took on other great horses.  

Side point.  Trivia Question:  How many races of any kind have the 11 horses whom Zenyatta beat in the Breeders Cup classic collectively won since then?  The clue is less than the total number of Grade 1 wins the two horses that Rachel beat in the Acorn last year (by over 19 lenghts).

Does it mean Rachel is better?  Nope, it means nothing because the two of them aren\'t meeting on the track....   So all we can do is talk and extrapoloate....

[richiebee]

jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richiebee,


>
> How you can seriously argue for more
> non-competitive races is beyond my ability to
> understand or rationalize. You really care about
> her \"record\" more than how it is achieved?  

> The \"classic distance\" for Fillies and Mares, in
> our country, in this time period, is  1 1/8 miles.

Yes, but as I have stated, what makes each of these gals special to me
is their accomplishments against males. As I have stated, I am already convinced
that RA would prevail over Zen at 9 furlongs, though it would be a close finish.
RA\'s advantage, in my opinion, would be enhanced if the 9f race was at Belmont,
where it would be run out of the chute.

> You really don\'t want to see the two best mares
> of the last 30 years meet in a race at that
> distance (apologies to Personal Ensign).  Instead
> you want to see Zenyatta race in the Ladie\'s
> Secrt, on poly, against Rinterval again?  And the
> reason is that it sets up a better bet in the
> Breeders Cup?  

After St Trinians layed it on the line against Zenyatta, it was announced that
she came out of the race injured. Wonder how long it will take Rinterval to
recuperate from yesterday\'s efforts?

> I don\'t know about \"owe it to racing\", although it
> isn\'t a bad argument.  How about \"owe it to
> Zenyatta\'s legacy\".  For her true fans, many on
> this board, they will still love her even though
> she doesn\'t race in competitive races.  But there
> are a whole bunch of people out there who will
> have memories of a very very consistent horse, who
> was extremely conservatively managed.  Not of a
> great horse who took on other great horses.  

Jim 20 for 20 lifetime, 13 Grade 1s and 3 BC wins is what Moss/Shireffs is
shooting for. That is not \"great\", its legendary. If you have a problem with the
strength of her competition, your problem is really with the whole sport of
Racing, which has produced a breed which races less and less frequently. Your
problem is with a sport which has been broken to an extent into two different
sports conducted on two different surfaces. If you believe her performances are
overrated, that might be an issue you could take up with the committee that
grades stakes races.

 
> Side point.  Trivia Question:  How many races of
> any kind have the 11 horses whom Zenyatta beat in
> the Breeders Cup classic collectively won since
> then?  The clue is less than the total number of
> Grade 1 wins the two horses that Rachel beat in
> the Acorn last year (by over 19 lenghts).

They kept showing that race on TVG yesterday. She cost me quite a few dollars
because I tried to get cute and left her out of the multiple race wagers. The
sting of those losses is gone, the wounds healed, and I was able to watch the
race objectively. She was winning pretty easily.

And the proper inquiry might be how many Grade 1 wins did the field in last years
BC Classic have GOING INTO the race?

Trivia Question: Throughout the great history of the NY Yankees, with all the
great players they have had, there is only one player who won Rookie of the Year
AND MVP (not in the same year) wearing the Pinstripes. CLUE-- his statistics were
not particularly impressive in either season.
 
> Does it mean Rachel is better?  Nope, it means
> nothing because the two of them aren\'t meeting on
> the track....   So all we can do is talk and
> extrapoloate....

[magicnight]

Thurman Munson. And he only won the 1976 AL MVP because most of the sportswriters could not fit inside their tiny craniums that the real MVP that year was legendary horseplayer, wit, and man-about-town, John Milton (Mickey) Rivers.

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

I believe the 11 horses Zenyatta beat have a total of 1 win period, since the Classic, not 1 Grade 1 win, but 1 win.

Rachel beat Malibu Prayer and Flashing in the 3 horse Acorn, whom have come back to win the Grade 1 Ruffian and Grade 1 Test since then.

[richiebee]

Very good, Magic.

Is it true that Yankee GMs were not able to trade Mick the Quick because he had
taken large personal loans from Steinbrenner to cover his gambling debts?

[smalltimer]

The horses Secretariat beat in the Belmont never won another race between them, not even a claiming race.
Rocky Marciano retired at 49-0 despite the fact he won his first professional fight and then went down and fought as an amateur and was beaten by Coley Wallace.  This along with the fact Rocky beat 5 different guys at least 2 times each, Gino Buonivino, Ted Lowry, Jersey Joe and Ezzard Charles.  People didn\'t care he kept beating the same old tomato cans, or that he fought his brother on numerous occassions who fought under different names. History shows he is the only undefeated heavyweight in history and to many he will always be the greatest of all time.  A lot of fans will not get caught up in Zenyatta\'s campaigns of \'09 and \'10.  History will be very kind to Zenyatta even if she stubs her toe in these last couple races. If Z is able to somehow win her 2 remaining races, she will be mentioned in the same breath as Secretariat, Citation, Man O\'War and even Ruffian.  Realistically...Ghostzapper, Quality Road, Rachel will not be in that same breath despite their greatness.  
Have a good one

[richiebee]

jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richiebee,
>
> I believe the 11 horses Zenyatta beat have a total
> of 1 win period, since the Classic, not 1 Grade 1
> win, but 1 win.
>
> Rachel beat Malibu Prayer and Flashing in the 3
> horse Acorn, whom have come back to win the Grade
> 1 Ruffian and Grade 1 Test since then.


So we should downgrade Rachel\'s Preakness win because she beat Racing\'s ultimate
one hit wonder by approximately  1 length?

Jimbo, gotta go. My beloved wife just told me she has an entire afternoon planned
which doesn\'t involve my participation. I have to go cry in my Racing Form.

[jimbo66]

Richiebee,

Good luck with your \"day to yourself\" with the wife out all day.

Yes, I would say that Rachel\'s Preakness is not even in her top 3 races last year.  Her best race to me was the Haskell, where she went 3w/3w and trounced a 1w/1w Summer Bird, who happened to win the Belmont, Travers and Jockey Club Gold Cup.  (yes the Monmouth race was an off track but Summer Bird won both the Travers and JCGP over sloppy tracks, beating Qualit Road, so the surface didn\'t hurt him IMO.

I think you are insulting Mine that Bird.  he is not the ultimate one hit wonder.  I think Mine that Bird is 3 times the horse that SUper Saver is.  IMO, Super Saver is the worst Derby winner in the couple decades.  That still has to be proven out over a few more failures by Super Saver (which will happen).  Mine that Bird ran a good Preakness and a good Belmont (bad ride by Calvin in the Belmont).  Super Saver was despicable in the Preakness and miserable in the Haskell, which will be followed by \"horrific\" if/when he runs in the Travers. (unless he catches another wet track)

jim