2009 Breeders' Cup --Thoro-Graph Final Figures

[TGAB]

Thoro-Graph sheets for the 2009 Breeders\' Cup with final figures are posted on the race of the week page.

[SoCalMan2]

TGAB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thoro-Graph sheets for the 2009 Breeders\' Cup with
> final figures are posted on the race of the week
> page.


Anybody notice that Twice Over ran a better figure than Zenyatta? Does that affect the debate?  If she were ridden by Garret Gomez, would everybody be saying the only reason she beat Twice Over was because she had the best jockey in the race?

[SoCalMan2]

SoCalMan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TGAB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thoro-Graph sheets for the 2009 Breeders\' Cup
> with
> > final figures are posted on the race of the
> week
> > page.
>
>
> Anybody notice that Twice Over ran a better figure
> than Zenyatta? Does that affect the debate?  If
> she were ridden by Garret Gomez, would everybody
> be saying the only reason she beat Twice Over was
> because she had the best jockey in the race?


WHOA!!!  Anybody notice that Ragozin had Twice Over 2.75 points better than Zenyatta and Thorograph only had him 1 point better.  At those figs, 1.75 points is a pretty big discrepancy -- am i missing something?

[P-Dub]

If you guys want to be a slave to numbers, be my guest.

It wouldn\'t have mattered.

[miff]

\"WHOA!!! Anybody notice that Ragozin had Twice Over 2.75 points better than Zenyatta and Thorograph only had him 1 point better. At those figs, 1.75 points is a pretty big discrepancy -- am i missing something\"

So Cal,


...race wide on RAGS and you are faster than Secretariat.RAGS has ground different than TG between Z and TO.


Mike

[Flighted Iron]

For someone who subscribes to a numbers website I surprised at your ability
to slant them when you need.Consistentcy and percentages.Or as the Essence
twangs \"streaks and patterns\".Quoting jockeys regarding a horses ability they
never rode.I really could not care less what Cordero,Pincay et al thinks regarding
Z\'s last race.They were spectating like everyone else.Bottom line is,I\'m going
with the people who have the best percentage of knowing how fast a horse ran.


King T. Leatherbury, Third Winningest Trainer of All Time:


\"Everyone who succeeds in this game has to be a good handicapper, whether it\'s as a trainer, owner, jockey, agent or horseplayer. THORO-GRAPH is the most important data source I have when it comes to buying a horse or managing it, or for my own betting.\"
Shug McGaughey, Trainer of Champions Easy Goer and Personal Ensign:


\"THORO-GRAPH lets me know the ability and chart the progress of every horse in my barn, as well as keep track of the competition.\"
John Forbes, Winner of Three Consecutive Meadowlands Training Titles:


\"I can\'t imagine anybody who is going to come to the races and bet, trying to do so without THORO-GRAPH figures in conjunction with the Racing Form - I just can\'t imagine that you could have any success without them.\"
Leading Trainer Bobby Frankel:


\"THORO-GRAPH measures exactly how well horses have performed in the past by factoring in variables not included in other speed figures. Then they put every horse\'s figures on its own graph, which lets me know at a glance where each one is in its own form cycle.\"
Daily Racing Form, February 13, 1989:


\"He (Mike Sedlacek) was one of the very first horsemen here to use Jerry Brown\'s THORO-GRAPH service, the speed figure sheets that are now almost de rigeur with \'serious\' horseplayers and horsemen.\"
the Las Vegas Review Journal:


\"Unlike any other method of rating horses, THORO-GRAPH is the only one I\'ve ever known to be endorsed by so many trainers, which, by itself, makes it unique.\"






da comers n da goers
the games brought down the line
the facts the figures will he get there in time
agonizing the brain drenched in sweat
they been there n they done that
many decades success n bet

Tell me please,where you do rank among the fore-mentioned people who\'ve
carved out a living in this business?Some of them for five decades.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[P-Dub]

Tell me, specifically, when have Thorograph figures been mentioned when assessing why a horse was voted HOY??

I\'m not slanting anything, I\'m trying to keep a number on a sheet in its proper perspective. I use TG to pick winners, not to decide who should win an award.

As I said previously, the award isn\'t called \"The horse with the best Thorograph figures\".

And again, you are comparing synthetic and dirt figures. They are 2 different surfaces. Apples to oranges.

If you want to compare accomplishments, as Jerry has done, I\'m perfectly fine with that. He makes a very compelling case for RA.

So I guess you would have the maiden that popped a -5 as a more deserving HOY than Zenyatta?? After all, he did run a faster TG figure.

[JimP]

If the award was called \"The horse with the best Thorograph figures\", then a pretty good case could be made for Summer Bird. Figures a re very similar to RA.

[Flighted Iron]

\"So I guess you would have the maiden that popped a -5 as a more deserving HOY than Zenyatta?? After all, he did run a faster TG figure\".

Zenyatta is a champion.Older Female.Your opinion is from quoting others opnions
regarding her performance and then calling it debatable?The debate for me will
be over when I see the fig.Both horses beat everyone they faced this year.Rachel
still wins HOY hands down.

Maybe you misunderstood.All the watchful eyes saying this was the greatest
performance they\'ve seen.After seeing the figure,there is no debate.Their wrong!!


People want to speculate on who wins a race with these two entered be my guest.People
want to give their opinions on who was or was not gutless be my guest.

Imo it\'s very obvious Rachel did more than Zenyatta this year to earn HOY.

The reality is we still don\'t know who will be selected for HOY.I\'ll take the
percentages and choose Rachel.You can choose whomever you like.The cold reality
is I will wager everything I own.Will you?It\'s no joke for me.I gamble.Do you
want to hide behind your keyboard or step out and actually risk something?You
talk quite a bit of trash imo.You\'ve made personal comments towards me.If you\'re
alarmed by my approach then so be it.Quite honestly if we were say on the field
of play and you uttered those things to me then you\'d be risking more than your
cash.The reality is we are not on the field and I can only take your money.
I suppose it\'s \"put up or shut up\" time.

[P-Dub]

Hide behind my keyboard? Risk something??  I was at the BC all weekend wagering. Made that clear for weeks.

Now I\'m supposed to wager on HOY?? I\'ve been on many \"fields of play\". If you can\'t take people talking on the field of play, I doubt you were very successful.  Playing ball in the Bay Area, you encounter lots of guys talking it up on the playgrounds. If you couldn\'t take it, you didn\'t last very long. And please, spare me the tough guy routine.

Wagering on HOY is like wagering on who is funnier, Donald Duck or Bugs Bummy?  Then letting 100 other people decide. BTW, Bugs is funnier.

As I said everyone is entitled to their opinion, using figures as the main pt of reference is what I find silly for reasons already discussed.