Synthetics VS Dirt & Turf Let the BC Debate and Banter Begin

[NoCarolinaTony]

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2009/10/video-breeders-cup-prompts-instrumented.html

Thought this interesting but scientific article would be interesting fodder to start the debate again....

Is it safer or not? Can you wager or not?

NCT

[Silver Charm]

Scientific??

This was a 3 horse sample.

I need pre-entries, post positions, Sheets, and a DRF. Not a new hypothesis before the biggest two days of racing of the year.

Europeans and Santa Anita based runners is about all you need to know once you have all of the above.

[sighthound]

That\'s terrific.  Watch the three views:  synthetic, dirt, turf - for just the following thing (although there is more to it than just one parameter)

See how much the hoof slides forward and around, and doesn\'t plant soundly, on dirt?  That\'s bad, bad, bad, bad ...

Notice by contrast how the hoof \"sticks\" on turf, but synthetic has a tad more give than turf, yet is far more stable than dirt.  That\'s exactly why synthetics were invented.

[martoon]

I\'m not sure the \"stick\" on synthetic is a good thing.  I had one good horse of mine who\'s ankles just got chewed up from training on the synthetic at Fair Hill every day. Maybe it is better to slide a little bit instead of sticking like velcro with every step.

[sighthound]

What do you mean by \"chewed up\" - rundown?

They do slide a bit on synthetics, that\'s the point.  These surfaces were created based upon physics, to try and optimize the hoof-surface interface.  

The video simply shows good examples of how the hoof interaction differs for the different surfaces.  

Certainly also depends upon which synthetic surface one is talking, of course, they are not all the same.

Dirt tracks are not \"natural\", they are man-made:  created out of clay and sand and a variety of soil types depending upon location, because turf can\'t stand up to the wear.  Anything we can do to find out what is safest and best for the horses - dirt of a certain type (and we all know they vary), one of the synthetics - is what we need to do.  

We used to race early TB\'s over long distances, often in heats.   In modern racing we ask them to race harder, much faster, over shorter distances.  That style of running contributes to bleeding, contributes to breakdowns.

I\'m in favor of gymnasts and track athletes having custom surfaces for their sports, and horses, too.

[martoon]

I think the vet described the ankle wear as remodeling and lots or cartilage breakdown.  Ths filly was lightly raced but worked and even galloped every day on the Tapeta.  Seems my trainer who was a real hay and oats guy had lots of leg and hind end ailments with his horses training on that stuff year round.  I\'ve heard from other trainers too stabled on synthetic tracks who have similar complaints.  Personally now I won\'t have one of mine train on the stuff.  I\'ll ship in and race on it but not train on it every day.  I\'m also leaning to private track training center type places where the horses can have the opportunity to gallop fast clockwise every other day so they are not making 5 million left turns and get out of balance.  At the big tracks you\'ll see them maybe jog the wrong way for a bit on the outside rail, but not be able to gallop fast the wrong way to get that strength on both sides.   What do you think of that?  I might be wrong but that\'s the way I\'m leaning after having to retire some quality lightly raced horses.

[analizethis]

An accurate and often quoted fact is that last year on the Pro Ride no winners had their final prep on dirt.

However, be careful using that fact in your handicapping as (in addition to being a very limited sample) runners with a final dirt prep represented 28% of the total starters on the main track and 28% of the runners who finished in the supers. Of course since they had no winners they made up 38% of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishers.

[miff]

Martoon,

I dislike synths period, however owner friends on the West Coast swear that their horses are staying generally sounder on synths.Many West coast trainers praise the surface when it\'s not too hot, too wet and whatever else.Similar to your experience others have attributed all sorts of \"new\" issues with their horses that were training on some type of synth.

Maybe it\'s all just random and horses that are prone to issues will have them regardless of which surface they train/race on.


Mike

[sighthound]

I think polytrack (from what I\'ve observed in KY directly) does build a horse stronger in their back, hind end (not legs) - thus that\'s where issues can present.

I have a hard time attributing bone or cartilage wear to synthetics, as the impact force is less than dirt (that was in the posted YouTube video, too)

Think of yourself training (jogging, running) on a good indoor synthetic professional track, versus running outside on asphalt.  Different types of injuries.  Also, speed vs marathoners - different injuries.

[sighthound]

I don\'t see many having success shipping in to race on Poly from dirt - may work better on Tapeta or ProRide.  Turf to Poly works well.  I would expect alot of muscle soreness after a race like that.  

I think you are absolutely right about the advantages of private training centers for variety in work, both directions developing a more even muscular strength, keeping a horse balanced, head down and extended in it\'s stride, relaxed with turnout, taking them for trail rides or gallops on grass, etc.  

If I see alot of sore backs in horses, I wonder who the exercise riders are in the am.

The back, the spine  - from the head carriage back to the tail - is key. It\'s what everything else muscular works around.

Watch horses go around with their backs up and rounded (strong), their heads and necks down, the rider light in the saddle - versus horses going around with their heads stuck up in the air, their necks looking upside down, their backs hollowed, and the ex rider bumping along and slamming into the back with every stride.

(a reason why some horses improve in different claiming trainers barns - the ex riders can do wonders)

Another pet peeve of mine:  ponying.  I don\'t like to see the horse with it\'s head elevated, it\'s body all crooked.  Not easy to get a ponied horse relaxed and kept in control without holding it\'s head in a certain place, but I hate to see warmups like that.

[Dana666]

The video was interesting. Did they say which synthetic surface they were showing? The root of the problem with synthetics is that the hoof sticks as you can see; that\'s very bad - if you\'ll notice, the hoof slides on the dirt and the force of impact is spread out more. On synthetics the force comes back into the horse\'s bones. On grass you have a similar situation to synthetics, but horses have been running on grass much longer and they have learned how, if you will, and I would suspect many, though not all grass courses, have more cushion just naturally built in with the depth of the grass. Also a horse with a wide hoof and one who is more adept at running over the grass would have fewer problems, and it is no surprise that those type of runners do well on both grass and synthetics.

The real bottom line with synthetics in California is you now have a large group of very inferior runners who, for whatever reason, have migrated to the synthetics; they are far inferior in quality to other circuits that have dirt racing and the situation is only getting worse and worse. Yeah, part of the cause of the problems was the rampant drug usage in California, so you can\'t totally blame synthetics, but the only real evidence of the success or failure of synthetics at Santa Anita in this case you really need look at is the quality of racing.

Did you check out the cards this meet? Oak Tree has historically been one of the best meets of the year (anywhere in the world) and the racing now is a complete joke: short fields, crippled horses, horses off long, long layoffs and so many cheap races. It is an absolute disgrace. All the worst horses who are only a few steps away from the truck to the slaughter houses in Mexico race at Santa Anita. Maybe you\'ll get one or two interesting competitive races on a weekend card, but the average weekday card at Oak Tree is full of cheap, boring, non-competitive races. There is nothing to intellectually challenge you in any way. There\'s no way to save this product. It\'s way too late. I mean I\'m going to have to find something else to do with my life. That\'s a challenge b/c I\'ve basically been involved in racing since the mid 70\'s when I was only a teenager. I went from the days of California racing when it was strong to grossing about 600-700K a year (on a modest investment of say 20-30K) to about 50K this year. I have no funds withheld by the IRS this year for the first time in my adult life. The betting is impossible and churning is now non-existent. I can\'t believe I\'m the only one either. In fact, I know I\'m not. I was pretty stupid and hung in there long time, but I should have been smarter. You know my grand ego loved the high roller treatment I used to get, so I ignored all the warning sings that things were going downhill, and by the time the full impact hit me I was toast. I really want to hear (as someone in this thread posted) who these moronic trainers/owners are who are supposedly are praising this surface b/c no one seriously involved in the game I\'ve ever spoken with has ever said one good thing about synthetics. Yeah, enjoy the Breeder\'s Cup but hold a funeral for California racing afterwards b/c it is OVER. There is no debate on that. Hollywood Park will be condos and Santa Anita will be a mall or a golf course in our lifetimes. Maybe they\'ll keep Del Mar standing as a museum or homage to Bing Crosby or have concerts and craft fairs in the facility.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Dana....

Wow, I really didn\'t think it was that bad out west, but you very eloquently described the eventual downfall of racing. When players like yourself are as dispirited about racing as I have seen, maybe racing\'s days are numbered sooner than we all think.

Did you get a load of Alex Waldrops last NTRA Blog Post, Racing Future is Bright? Oh really? I am sure I can go back to posts and debates I had years ago about this, and people thought I was just being negative. Consolidation is needed. fewer racing dates, better quality (See HONG KONG).

I love racing. I wants things to change for the better. I also wanted synthetics to work. I am looking at synths as a completely different surface, but cannot help play it more like turf racing> The stuff can have a bias, but it comes and goes quick, and you better adjust right (and quick) as they disappear as quick as they materialize (my opinion). I am convinced, I miss dirt racing.

Racing never did anything to help bring in new fans during my years of growing up. Anyway....

[sighthound]

The video was interesting. Did they say which synthetic surface they were showing?

Yes, at the start it says the video was shot at Keeneland (and shows the track/grandstand), thus Polytrack.

The root of the problem with synthetics is that the hoof sticks as you can see; that\'s very bad - if you\'ll notice, the hoof slides on the dirt and the force of impact is spread out more

Whoa - respectfully, no, that\'s backwards.   It may seem counter-intuitive, but the measurements in the video clearly show how the above assumption is wrong.  

The very problem synthetics primarily address is that yes, that the hoof does slide around alot more on dirt, as you say - but that instability is what is extremely dangerous.

You can see it in the video of dirt, with the hoof sliding, eventually sliding to an abrupt stop, and the pastern, fetlock/ankle, lower leg (cannon) wiggling all over the place while the horses weight carries over it.  

Also notice the difference in breakover (the circular roll forward) on dirt vs synthetic vs turf.  The synthetic is very smooth, the dirt is abrupt, jerky.

The manner in which synthetics absorb the force without the foot sliding all over the place is exactly what they were designed to do.  That is what makes them safer.

That force is not spread around on dirt, and that force is clearly higher on dirt than on Polytrack.  It can be clearly seen on the graphs within the video that measure the impact force off the horseshoe.  

Go to 1:48 in the video, where the graphs start, and you will see the following:

Synthetic:
vertical force peak at about 12 N/kg, spread over about 250 milliseconds.

Dirt:
vertical force peak at about 16-17 N/kg (markedly higher), spread over less than 200 milliseconds.

Turf:  
vertical force peak at about 18-19 N/kg (higher yet), spread over slightly longer time than dirt.

The synthetic clearly decreases the force, and spreads it over a longer time, than any of the three surfaces.   Dirt has increased force, spread over shorter time period.

[Niall]

Some excellent, often overlooked points made here ... (IMO) One cant say enough about quality exercise riders and being able to gallop in both directions is also key. Horses have a dominant side and if its not going left ... oh well ... Nvr thought about the ponying angle but often wondered why its not used in Europe but is mandated in this country. Although I did feel bad this past weekend for the one guy who had to walk the horse to the gate up at Woodbine ... Its funny as the more I learn about the horse the less I should wager ... But wager I will !!!

[marcus]

Thanks for posting the video Sight - a fantastic visual aid for beginning to understand the different type of footings .

The new surfaces seem to be in their infancy stages imo and constantly will need to be \"tweaked \" so as not to make them to \"sticky\" or to \"slippery \" either .

The way I see it , the ( breakdown/ injury ) data is there for how the new surfaces are performing and should be looked at .