Those charmed by and defending cheaters

[rosewood]

It doesn\'t cost a nickel to post on this board or some of the others in defense of Dutrow and other cheaters in the game.

It has also been posted that big scores are made by backing these crooks as a handicapping advantage.

It would be nice to see the opinions of all the people that have to pay feed and training bills and get beat by the criminals.

What about Mr. Brown who makes his living selling advice and seeing lots of his selections beat by cheaters.

People who condone cheating in racing should form their own web site and boast about their ill gotten gains among themselves.

[Rick B.]

rosewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn\'t cost a nickel to post on this board or
> some of the others in defense of Dutrow and other
> cheaters in the game.
>
> It has also been posted that big scores are made
> by backing these crooks as a handicapping
> advantage.
>
> It would be nice to see the opinions of all the
> people that have to pay feed and training bills
> and get beat by the criminals.
>
> What about Mr. Brown who makes his living selling
> advice and seeing lots of his selections beat by
> cheaters.
>
> People who condone cheating in racing should form
> their own web site and boast about their ill
> gotten gains among themselves.

You seem to know quite a bit about Dutrow, so I have a question:

Other than the mepivacaine positives (two horses, one suspension), which Dutrow fought diligently and spent over $100K of his own money defending himself before he gave up, what other serious horse drugging violations does he have?
 
I only find trivial bute overages and ticky-tack Lasix stuff. What am I missing? Cobra venom? Elephant juice? WD-40? What?

Enlighten me, if you will, and please spare me all of the stuff about his \"character\" and his smoking pot years ago, and all of that other crap that has nothing to do with the \"cheater\" tag; I\'m asking for specific horse drugging violations that directly correlate to him being labeled a cheater.

[rosewood]

Rick,

I don\'t know Rick Dutrow. I don\'t think WD-40 enhances performance. We are not talking about smoking dope or not wearing a seat belt.

(two horses,one positive) is enough for me.

Have a nice day.

[Rick B.]

rosewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (two horses,one positive) is enough for me.

Really?

If Dutrow is cheating as much as he is alleged to be, wouldn\'t he have more than one positive?

(Or is it your position that his horses are getting a pass at the spit box and other testing?)

Is he cheating now? I\'ll say no, because there is no evidence to support it. How would you answer that question, rosewood?

The problem with allegations that have no basis in proof is that they can be used against anybody...the old, \"So have you stopped beating your wife?\" trick.

Dutrow has one significant positive, ONE, that he fought and fought, until it became financially imprudent to continue to do so -- and as a result, tons of his detractors (like you) call him \"cheater\" and think that he has some \"magic bullet\" substance that NO ONE can detect.
 
If that were true, then the exact same allegations can be made against Mott, Clement, et al who consistently win more that others trainers: Guilty until proven Innocent. Is that where we are at in horse racing -- everybody that wins frequently is guilty?

And if you really feel that way -- why are you still betting on horses?

Slippery slope, IMO.

[fkach]

\"Assuming\" Dutrow is cheating, IMO he does it in way that makes it more difficult to make a case against him. He\'s constantly moving up horses, but it\'s almost always after a two or so month layoff and often with a horse that has had some problems or is coming from a much less successful barn. That\'s the kind of move up thing allows for the possibility of superior horsemanship, a superior vet, superior problem recognition, superior resources, legal drug enhancement (like steroids) etc...

It\'s the guys that take horses from other top notch horsemen and turn them around in a week that are easier to make a case against.

One thing I can tell you for certain is that most of the guys that do well on trainer changes do especially well with horses with good recent back figures that have recently gone bad. They seem to get them to recover their best form very quickly.

[SoCalMan2]

rosewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn\'t cost a nickel to post on this board or
> some of the others in defense of Dutrow and other
> cheaters in the game.
>
> It has also been posted that big scores are made
> by backing these crooks as a handicapping
> advantage.
>
> It would be nice to see the opinions of all the
> people that have to pay feed and training bills
> and get beat by the criminals.
>
> What about Mr. Brown who makes his living selling
> advice and seeing lots of his selections beat by
> cheaters.
>
> People who condone cheating in racing should form
> their own web site and boast about their ill
> gotten gains among themselves.


I know I am not the only person to whom the posting above is directed, but I would like to make one thing absolutely clear if my earlier post today may have been misread -- I do not condone cheating in any way.  It is absolutely deplorable and should be cracked down upon to the maximum extent.

Dutrow may very well be a cheater and he should be subjected to tough scrutiny and punishments if he does not withstand the scrutiny.  His personality -- no matter what one thinks of it -- has nothing to do with the fact that he should face the full force of the law if he is breaking it. In terms of whether or not he is breaking the law, I strongly suspect he is, but I am not expert enough to be able to say that with certainty.

If you are suggesting that people -- without any inside information whatsoever -- who cash bets on horses trained by likely cheaters are themselves cheaters, then that is simply crazy.   Anybody who won on Big Brown is sitting on ill gotten gains?

[rosewood]

Sir,

I would not attack you or anyone else personally. Maybe using Dutrow in particular was not a good way to vent my frustation and I should have just gone out and kicked the dog instead.

Just pick anyone of the 15 or 20 trainers that JB mentioned and insert that name in place of Dutrow.

I have no desire to get in a pissin contest with anyone and probably should have or could have made a better presentation.

BB is a fast horse with bad feet and I did not bet him before the TC and have played against him in the Derby and Preakness partly due to his trainer, which is my choice.

He bet me in the Derby and I was a big enough winner in the Preakness to be positive  for the first two. It is not sour grapes. Looking forward to the Preakness if he runs.

Regards

[girly]

Kicked the dog? What the @$#&^*? Is that an expression? Jeez! One I\'ve never heard before!

[Uncle Buck]

Rosewood. Betting \"AT\" trainers and jockeys is ALWAYS a losing proposition. You can not win in this game betting with a fistful of resentments. Tried it. Doesn\'t work. I used to bet football that way too. Never panned out.

Instead of kicking the dog, why not take him for a nice long walk. Drop by the butcher shop and get him a nice big bone. It will make you feel better about things and make the dog happy:-)

[girly]

Rosewood is not really a dog kicker,just suffering from lack of a good thesaurus. Uncle Buck, I think you\'re right, keep your friend\'s close and your enemies closer, to coin a phrase (for lack of imagination) I definitely would like to know about numbers and trends in trainers and jocks that have legit or not so legit reasons. Knowledge is power! I did it again- these one liners keep coming- I\'d better stop now...
  Time for a beer to go with the barbeque-Have a good Memorial Day!

[imallin]

Ok, we\'re sold. Dutrow is honest and wins races on oats and hay. We get it. He\'s dominating thoroughbred racing on oats, hay and water.

He\'s just out-training everyone, its clear as crystal.

[cubfan0316]

remmember the days of dutrow claiming horses and running them back 3 days later and running big figures? makes you wonder

[MonmouthGuy]

I have no direct evidence, but my observation has been that some of his move-ups off the claim (or after a training change) are ridiculous.  I sit out any race that has a Dutrow horse first-time after a layoff because I have no idea what to expect. I am sure that there are those here who can give you exact statistics.  I can only tell you what I see with my own eyes.

[miff]

Imallin,

No trainer is dominating racing.It\'s not just hay and oats.Tricky is one of the modern day trainers pushing right up against the illegal line,crossing it occasionally, when legal stuff does not pass a horses system when normally expected,like Asmussen and app 20 others.There is so much legal stuff that guys are loading these horses up with steroids/super jugs et al and zoom!

Much stiffer penalties, for purposely crossing the line type offenses, are needed with big monetary fines.

Still, no one caught with the magic bullet YET and maybe never will be if the testing doesn\'t catch up with the illegal designer stuff out  there.Money for testing is nowhere near what the drug testing people are asking.Many of the empty management suits that you hear barking about drugs and racing reform are the same ones who have underfunded the testing side for years.



Mon Guy,

Tricky was app 32% off the 1st time trainer change angle.Their are a few others in that range.Speaking of trainers, is Catalano giving his horses virgin olive oil or pasta, winning at somewhere near 70% at Arlington.


Mike

[MonmouthGuy]

Thanks.