Plecher is OUT

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Yes, read it and weep substance bettors.

The First Saturday in May is a \"Dry Saturday\" in a dry county.

Whatchagonnado when the juicers can\'t run for you?

http://sports.yahoo.com/rah/news?slug=ap-kentuckyderby-drugtesting&prov=ap&type=lgns

P.S. Monba is still a dangerous horse to leave off the ticket

Zito was crying a bit. Think its time to downgrade Anak Nakal?

[Rick B.]

Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The First Saturday in May is a \"Dry Saturday\" in a
> dry county.

First, it\'s still Kentucky -- arguably the loosest state of all, medication-wise.
 
Second, an excerpt from the article:

\"Kentucky Horse Racing Authority executive director Lisa Underwood said trainers should be "ready for anything" when it comes to testing this year.

Well, almost anything. The Derby horses will not be tested for steroids...\"

Third, is there TCO2 testing in Kentucky? No mention in the article, but if you can still jug a horse in Ky., well...
 
Lastly, it was perceived by the Dutrow and Asmussen bashers that their horses would flop miserably under the \"more stringent rules and testing\" in Dubai. Didn\'t happen, so either the \"better testing\" is just BS being spewed to calm the public, or these guys are still way ahead of the chemists.
 
(I won\'t even bother with the other option -- that these guys and Pletcher are just better horsemen, with better stock than the rest. That just isn\'t possible, is it?)

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Rick,

The quote does Not say they \"Will not be tested for Steroids.\" My read is that the trainers better be worried they may. (Whether there is a sanction is another matter.)

I absolutely discount the notion that Plech can pick a yearling out of the sales any better than my barber.

Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The First Saturday in May is a \"Dry Saturday\" in
> a
> > dry county.
>
> First, it\'s still Kentucky -- arguably the loosest
> state of all, medication-wise.
>  
> Second, an excerpt from the article:
>
> \"Kentucky Horse Racing Authority executive
> director Lisa Underwood said trainers should be
> "ready for anything" when it comes to testing this
> year.
>
> Well, almost anything. The Derby horses will not
> be tested for steroids...\"
>
> Third, is there TCO2 testing in Kentucky? No
> mention in the article, but if you can still jug a
> horse in Ky., well...
>  
> Lastly, it was perceived by the Dutrow and
> Asmussen bashers that their horses would flop
> miserably under the \"more stringent rules and
> testing\" in Dubai. Didn\'t happen, so either the
> \"better testing\" is just BS being spewed to calm
> the public, or these guys are still way ahead of
> the chemists.
>  
> (I won\'t even bother with the other option -- that
> these guys and Pletcher are just better horsemen,
> with better stock than the rest. That just isn\'t
> possible, is it?)

[rosewood]

The designer roids cannot be tested for even in Dubai and Japan unless they have a sample. I doubt that any trainer is going to give them a sample of his \"Silver Bullet\" to use.

The best roid maker or at least one of the best has stated that he intended to produce one that would allow an 80 year old man in a wheelchair to hit a 500 foot homerun.

Even if a trainer was caught; what would be the penalty, $500 and and 15 days?

[miff]

Rick,

I believe you meant to say the cheats/chemists are ahead of the testers.No matter how much testing they do some guys will continue to win at a high rate, if they are using undetectable stuff.There is cheating going on but not as much as the conspiracy theorists believe. Some guys just get lucky and get a chance to get real quality stock, some of which turns out to be real fast.

Horsemanship is something that seems to coincide with quality stock and fast horses. Ever wonder how thes so called great \"horsemen\" would do if they had John Candlin\'s barn of despicable New York Bred slow rats.

It could be that Tricky is this years brilliant \"horseman\" but remember when Pat Reynolds trained BB, he was very impressive also.

Mike

[richiebee]

... but why even go there, Spend a Chuck, when major contenders this year will
also be lead over from the barns of 2 of the other usual suspects, Steve
Asmussen and \"Babe\" Dutrow.

These guys all have high volume high visibility operations. If they are using
any performance enhancing methods, these are methods which have consistently
passed or evaded the level of scrutiny which is being applied by Racing.

If you are going to attack the credibility of a trainer, why not use FACTS or
STATISTICS (TG #s?)to support your contentions?

Here\'s a project for Clownograph: All of TAPs Derby starters, what number did they get in their last Derby prep, what was their subsequent Derby # ? Big
bounces? Wouldn\'t this be helpful, seeing as TAP could have 2 and maybe 3
runners in the Derby? (Not bad for a trainer who has been \"counted out\" by some
who should know better).

The Circus Wagon hasn\'t been running the White Mercedes off the road recently;
you weren\'t ceased and desisted, were you?

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

In Richality,

It\'s getting exciting isn\'t it? I can\'t hardly sit still. I can\'t hardly sleep. Are you on as big a Derby Buzz?

Remember that old anti-drugs commerial? \"This egg is your mind, this egg in the frying pan is your mind on Dope\"?

Theres a couple angles for this Derby, and angles to factor later when they test and discipline for Steroids and Bloodpacking. If some have been cheating and the threat of being discovered and/or disciplined becomes significant, they will modify their behavior. I think the Derby this year has great potential to modify behavior. They will be watched and they will be tested. It would be prudent to be careful and rely upon your horse and your horsemanship.

If the above occurs the question is which trainers benefit and which trainers are impacted negatively. In regard to the former. I think Mott moves up big time. The problem is that his horse has not looked like much. If he was any horse at all he should have walked away from them in the stretch of the Wood. That said, Mott is genuine. I think Stutts, Tagg and Matz move up.

Who moves down? Plech, Zito, Gas and Dutrow. But, you have to factor the horse too. How good are their horses? I tend to think Gas and Tricky are bringing better eggs to Louisville.



richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... but why even go there, Spend a Chuck, when
> major contenders this year will
> also be lead over from the barns of 2 of the other
> usual suspects, Steve
> Asmussen and \"Babe\" Dutrow.
>
> These guys all have high volume high visibility
> operations. If they are using
> any performance enhancing methods, these are
> methods which have consistently
> passed or evaded the level of scrutiny which is
> being applied by Racing.
>
> If you are going to attack the credibility of a
> trainer, why not use FACTS or
> STATISTICS (TG #s?)to support your contentions?
>
> Here\'s a project for Clownograph: All of TAPs
> Derby starters, what number did they get in their
> last Derby prep, what was their subsequent Derby #
> ? Big
> bounces? Wouldn\'t this be helpful, seeing as TAP
> could have 2 and maybe 3
> runners in the Derby? (Not bad for a trainer who
> has been \"counted out\" by some
> who should know better).
>
> The Circus Wagon hasn\'t been running the White
> Mercedes off the road recently;
> you weren\'t ceased and desisted, were you?

[smalltimer]

Bill Mott\'s dad was a veterinarian.  Anyone who\'s brought up working with animal\'s and has a vet for a dad isn\'t totally above the possibility.

[smalltimer]

You can look at Louie Rousell III, Neil Pessin, John Kimmel who gave up a vet practice to train, there\'s a whole lotta people who work with animals that have experience, or backgrounds working with or growing with or becoming associates with those that have knowledge of animals.  It doesn\'t mean any more than it means.  Good horsemen, poor horsemen, we\'ve all seen them.
The constant hammering on Pletch, Asmussen, Lake, etc only means they\'re the easy targets because they\'re the most visible, and many want to link their successes to drugs.
You\'ve got the different levels in Illinois vs. Louisiana, etc.  What\'s a legal level in one area exceeds the levels in another.  
Doesn\'t mean they can\'t train, it just makes it equally dangerous to wager on or against their stock.  Take your pick.

[TGJB]

Ad Nauseum--

TCO2 testing is irrelevant as long as the threshold level for a positive is 37. Horses produce 29-31 on their own (on rare occasions 32). In my quest to bring this subject out into the daylight I recently got a response to my F.O.I Act request from N.Y., and so far I\'ve just looked at the test results for one month (Jan 08). There are lots of 33s and 34s, which CAN NOT happen naturally. We\'ve been a little busy with the Derby, new products, etc., so we haven\'t had time yet to match the results up by trainer, or seriously pursue the discussions with other states.

As I have mentioned before, the dialogue we have had with Kentucky has been hilarious (and continued in that vein)-- and in response to what someone said here, there is more than a question as to whether they have been testing in Kentucky. I know for a fact there have been stretches of time where they have not. And that appears to be one of the reasons they are fighting not to release the data to me.

[Rick B.]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ad Nauseum--
>
> TCO2 testing is irrelevant as long as the
> threshold level for a positive is 37. Horses
> produce 29-31 on their own (on rare occasions 32).
> In my quest to bring this subject out into the
> daylight I recently got a response to my F.O.I Act
> request from N.Y., and so far I\'ve just looked at
> the test results for one month (Jan 08). There are
> lots of 33s and 34s, which CAN NOT happen
> naturally.

Thank you Jerry. I knew you had mentioned this many times before, but I couldn\'t remember the actual #\'s, and I was too lazy to go look for them.
 
My point in bringing it up was in response to Chuckles over-exuberance regarding the latest proclamation of \"new and improved\" testing for the Derby -- new and improved, how so?

They never quantify it, so I just chalk it up to more mealy-mouthed bullshit from the local PR machine -- whether it\'s the tracks, the authorities, whoever -- and I\'ll neither move and trainers up or down because of it.

[TGJB]

I\'m pushing pretty hard in several different directions on the TCO2 and other drug issues, and when I get some time I\'m going to push harder. It will probably take a serious investigative reporter to blow this up, and one of the things I\'m doing is working on that.

[richiebee]

Smalltimer:

Some cracks in the facade are showing. I may have to start calling
you \"Smallminded\".

We are going to say that the youngest trainer ever admitted to Racing\'s Hall of
Fame, a trainer who has probably been leading trainer at in excess of 10
different tracks (and probably more)(including Saratoga maybe 10 times)is not
above suspicion because \"His father was a vet\"? Even the Citrus Conspiracy seems
to acknowledge that Mott is beyond reproach.

To say that Neil Pessin \"gave up a veterinary career\" is a bit of a stretch.
Are you confusing Neil with his father, a controversial former state vet in the
state of Kentucky?

Rather than distributing errata, why not go back to that definitive synthetic
breeding study. With any luck, it might be finished by the time that all US
tracks have returned to dirt racing.

Your early contributions were viable, though verbose. Now it seems like you
have joined my dear friend Chuckles on the grassy knoll.

[rosewood]

Jerry,
Keep it up. You are the only one who seems concerned or at least is willing to come out of the closet!

You are to be commended for all your work and efforts.................

[sighthound]

TGJB Wrote:
> There are
> lots of 33s and 34s, which CAN NOT happen
> naturally.

Please see the current breadth of scientific literature regarding feedstuffs/nutrition and dietary constituent impact on altering TCO2 levels in the horse.

General rule:
Horses on pasture:  generally run 26-32
Horses on commercial feed and hay: 27-33
Horses on higher protein feeds, supplements and hays 28-35

With no \"milkshaking\" involved.