Circumstantial Evidence

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Below is a nice archived article about Plech\'s early years. Some refer to those times as \"The Learning Years\". I refer to them as \"Pre & Post Allday\".

Plech went out on his own in 1996. In 2000 he burst upon the Derby Scene with 4 horses that had run fast preps. (Fast for that era, though clearly not as fast as Plech Triple Crown Preppers run now.)

I always get a tremendous chuckle out of the statements that Allday and Plech make about how good horses are what drives their success. There can be no doubt that good and talented horses are essential to success, but what they always fail to add is that performance enhancing medications can take good and talented horses into otherwise unobtainable performance realms.

There is another factor with using performance enhancing drugs. I learned this concept from Thorograph in the pre \"Allday Era\". But the Allday Era reinforced the concept so forcefully, that for me at least it is now a given:

\"With the brittle nature of today\'s speed bred horse, medicated efforts to run faster and/or further impact the recovery time of the medicated horse and unsound horses artificially asked to run faster than the are biologically constituted  will experience the \"effects\" of those efforts.\"

The above is why the \"Modern Plech\" (2000-Present) typically likes to give his horses large blocks of time between races. Though schedules conflict and he can\'t always do so.

Plech and Allday will participate in public forums now and then. Racing chats, Radio chats. I know what they are doing and when they began doing it, but if the folks here are genuinely curious and not just argumentative call in and ask the critical questions. For me, they would be rhetorical because questions can be answered by implication.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/horseracing/2000/triplecrown/kentucky/news/2000/04/30/ky_derby_adv_ap/

CtMC

[Barry Irwin]

Put up or shut up, pal.

If you know what they are doing, let\'s hear about it.

I humbly submit you don\'t know a thing, because in tandem, they are doing exactly nothing.

For one thing, Allday only does lameness work for Todd.

You are a troll on the sidelines of life and most likely a sick gambler.

If you have something to say, then say it god damit or shut the hell up.

If you can prove that these guys are cheating then tell me and I will expose them.

E mail me at valorific@aol.com and let\'s put this sucker to rest once and for all.

I think you are full of hot, foul air.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Barry,

Worse yet I doubt this guy ever reaches into his pocket to make a bet at all.
At most he\'s a $2.00 bettor on Derby and BC days.

I\'m sure he gets the TG sheets next day in red board room.

Why this guy is permitted to spew his nonsense year after year boggles the mind.

Put up or shut up clown face.

NC Tony

PS what in that article was worthy of the libelous statements that you make or supports any of your BS?

[high roller]

barry, thank you for saying this, i have told jerry he should stop this type of stuff. if any of these guys read the bloodstock feature piece on allday they would have some facts, the guy hasn\'t used a needle on 5 years, he travels the country 5 days a week evaluating horses, he is making a fortune.

why would he put all this in jeopardy?

[alm]

Personally,I find it difficult to believe, in light of the myriad proofs of drug use in cycling that humans are more likely to blood-dope or drug themselves as athletes in order to win as opposed to blood-doping athlete-horses.  

In any case, neither Mr. Chuckles nor I have to prove anything.  We\'re just shooting off our mouths anyway.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

http://www.lubrisyn.com/pdfs/Bloodhorse_Questions_Allday.pdf



high roller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> barry, thank you for saying this, i have told
> jerry he should stop this type of stuff. if any of
> these guys read the bloodstock feature piece on
> allday they would have some facts, the guy hasn\'t
> used a needle on 5 years, he travels the country 5
> days a week evaluating horses, he is making a
> fortune.
>
> why would he put all this in jeopardy?

High,

I\'ve read you stating a couple times now that Allday doesn\'t use needles.

First off, if you ask George W. Bush if he hid the fact from America that there was no recent evidence of WMD\'s to support invasion and asked him if he knew his Administration was outing a CIA agent in an attempt to silence critics pointing out Iraq\'s lack of nuclear capability he would obviously tell you something to lead you off the evidence trail.

There\'s a simple concept in Criminality: \"Crooks don\'t come clean\". That is why Barry Irwin will not ask Plech or Allday the question he is in a position to ask. It\'s why he asks me to provide proof of the needles penetration. He is hiding behind wilful ignorance. He could attempt to pin down a key factor easily, but if he did so, he could jeopardize his ability to send horses to Plech and lose also the industry prestige he desperately hopes to claim. It\'s an easy question. There\'s nothing disrespectful on its face to ask the question. But questions have implications too and answers can be very disconcerting. \"Plech, when did Allday first start administering to horses that you train.\" It\'s within his power, but I assure you Irwin will not ask that question. Oh I know, many here will say: \"So what, I don\'t care if Allday did come to Plech in 2000 and was instrumental in Left Bank\'s brief run. So what, Plech had already learned all he needed to know in the previous 4 years. It\'s Plech that made the difference!\" Those folks will eventually get to the truth and when they do they will insist that they knew it all along.

Here\'s a 2006 Q/A with Allday. Take note of the second picture and come back here and qualify your statement.

http://www.lubrisyn.com/pdfs/Bloodhorse_Questions_Allday.pdf

[sighthound]

Chuckles repeated, monotonous soliloquies regarding, \"the use of drugs in racing\", bring me to only one conclusion:  his factual ignorance is simply overwhelming in its magnitude.

[spa]

Chuckles, outing the CIA agent was not a crime...............stick to the facts senor.

[PapaChach]

Incorrect.

Just because Fitz couldn\'t prove that Rove outed a covert intelligence officer - in part because Libby was willing to \"stick his neck into the meat grinder\", as Cheney put it in a statement that was admitted into evidence at the trial - doesn\'t mean that outing a covert intelligence officer is not a crime.

I rarely post here and I hate to enter the Chuckle-licious fray, and I hesitate to get political on this board; furthermore, I must state for the record that my comments should not be construed as an endorsement of the clown, his opinions, or his methods. I am a bite-my-tongue kinda guy for the most part, but I just can\'t let that \"it wasn\'t a crime cuz that\'s what they said on Faux News\" meme sit there unopposed, when it is so blatantly incorrect.  

Plame was covert, and she was outed in an act of political revenge against her husband, who dared to publicly question the lies used to justify O.I.L. (Operation Iraqi Liberation - hey, don\'t yell at me, that\'s the name they used at the beginning). Plenty of people get away with illegal shit every day - the fact that they get away with it doesn\'t mean it ain\'t illegal.

[Barry Irwin]

ALLDAY DOES NOT TREAT PLETCHER HORSES FOR ANYTHING BUT LAMENESS.

He should treat The Clown, because he as lame as they come.

Get a new line, pal.

[spa]

Papa,you\'re in the right church,but the wrong pew..........

[PapaChach]

maybe so...just hate to see people get away with stuff...and lest anybody accuse me of partisanship, i registered as \"no party\" about fifteen years ago, and i thought slick willie should have been removed for lying under oath, the \"well, he only lied over a blow job\" line didn\'t resonate with me...perhaps i\'m just a hopeless romantic...

[sighthound]

Oh, I don\'t know, Barry.

\"Drugs\", and \"they are using drugs\", is such a broad, general, unsupportable  accusation ...

Certainly both chuckles and alm must be educated enough regarding drug use and misuse to suspect particular substances are being used.

I would like to hear from both of them what specific drugs or substances they know of, that improves a horses performance markedly, that isn\'t tested for under current NYRA, that would escape detection under current track procedures, that they obviously suspect repeated useage of in a variety of horses?

Certainly they have some sense of this to support their opinion.  

I doubt they are just \"throwing out\" repeated general accusations without any basis in pharmacologic reality at all.

Are they?

[miff]

Sight wrote:

\"I would like to hear from both of them what specific drugs or substances they know of, that improves a horses performance markedly, that isn\'t tested for under current NYRA, that would escape detection under current track procedures, that they obviously suspect repeated usage of in a variety of horses\"

Sight,
... there are many designer epo drugs/super pain meds that are NOT tested for. In some instances they do not have a test and in others the test is on a spot basis because it\'s too expensive.I doubt Barry Irwin believes that there are NO trainers using illegal drugs but feels strongly that TAP is not one of them.

The discussion here is about the conspiracy idiots who think there is a TAP/Allday illegal drug conspiracy making TAP win lots of stakes/races.Without knowing ANYTHING about arguably the most talented/expensive barn ever assembled and without racing common sense, the conspiracy idiots read the nonsense about the \"White Mercedes\" and latch on.The barn is presently underachieving at the SPA and has done so several times in the recent past. Where\'s TAP\'s blood dope,et al/ hmmm, probably using it only at Monmouth now.Makes good, solid common sense, no?


It\'s idiotic to believe that every time a horse runs giant, there are illegal drugs involved, it does happen occasionally though, imo.


Mike

[sighthound]

\" ... there are many designer epo drugs/super pain meds that are NOT tested for.\"
 
Yes. I know what those drugs classes and substances are, and what they could do for a horse.

\"The discussion here is about the conspiracy idiots who think there is a TAP/Allday illegal drug conspiracy making TAP win lots of stakes/races. Without knowing ANYTHING about arguably the most talented/expensive barn ever assembled and without racing common sense, the conspiracy idiots read the nonsense about the \"White Mercedes\" and latch on.\"

Exactly, Miff.
 
Drug use in racing is indeed a problem.  However, the conspiracy theorists prefer to throw out generalized, unsubstantiated acusations of \"drug use\" - even talking about specific horse performances and specific professionals -  without having a clue as to what specific drug(s) could have been used in that circumstance, how they work, how long it takes to effect a result, when the drug would have to be given, in light of the racing jurisdiction they are discussing.

It\'s easy to throw out such generalized accusations from the anonymity of a discussion board, even if one is obviously essentially ignorant of what they are discussing.  To consider themselves as striking a blow for clean racing is ludicrous.