Three Blind Mice...

[lfe2211]

The stews at Saratoga have had a marvelous week. JRV\'s drunken sailor Sweet Brush in todays ninth amazingly stayed up and Tobruk (with JRV) in friday\'s 5th was being held by a handler at the start, should have been declared a non-starter. Just another fine few days of work for the three blind mice.

[miff]

LFE 221,

They called the infraction by the winner \"insufficient\" to alter the races outcome but it may have compromised  the chance for a better placing for the 3 horse, imo(the one he bumped)

Huge decision as the p6 does not get hit if the winner comes down.Personally I do not like DQ\'S unless the foul definitely seems to alter the outcome of the race.Agree the stewards are sometimes like the three blind mice.


Mike

[JR]

The 9 bothered the 3, period. I can only believe the stewards let stand a \"popular\" result. Pathetic.

[lfe2211]

miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LFE 221,
>
> They called the infraction by the winner
> \"insufficient\" to alter the races outcome but it
> may have compromised  the chance for a better
> placing for the 3 horse, imo(the one he bumped)
>
> Huge decision as the p6 does not get hit if the
> winner comes down.Personally I do not like DQ\'S
> unless the foul definitely seems to alter the
> outcome of the race.Agree the stewards are
> sometimes like the three blind mice.
>
>
> Mike

Difficult for me to see for sure how much the #3 horse (my race key) was affected by the zigzagging \"popular\" 9 horse.

Anyone else see Tobruk (Friday R5) being held at the start by a handler causing a 5-7 length slow break. My slow mo replay appeared to show the holding clearly. Anyone know the exact rule on this with regard to the horse being declared a non-starter? Is this purely up to the discretion of the stewards or is holding a horse as the gates open a mandatory declaration that the horse is a non-starter?

Thanks.

[JR]

According to the chart, SPEAKING OUT dug in stubbornly in the stretch, was bumped in deep stretch and was steadied. What more has to happen for there to be a disqualification? It was a foul. You take the 9 down.

[imallin]

I don\'t believe the bump cost the 3 a better placing. If either closer nosed out the 3, there might have been a change. I think it was the right call.

If you compare racing to the NBA or the NFL, there are penalties or fouls on almost every play, but you can\'t call every penalty, you\'d be there all day. NFL calls some holdings and lets some go, they can\'t call every single time there\'s a hold, a game would take 7 hours.

Little bumps and brushes happen all the time, racing is a contact sport, contact is bound to happen. Contact happens at the start of almost every race. Also, most contact happens when a horse doesn\'t see another horse. In this case, when the 9 went by the 3, she lugged in because there was nothing to her left side. So, in a way, the only reason the 3 got bumped is because she couldn\'t keep up. Do we want to \'reward\' a horse for being too slow?

I see this stuff happen all the time at the gate. If a horse in the gate breaks just a touch slow, the two horses surrounding him break towards that vacant spot and the slow breaker, even if its slow by a hundredth of a second will get \'squeezed\' back by the 2 horses on either side of him. But, that horse got squeezed because he didn\'t break out of the gate quick enough.

Do we want to reward that slow breaker by dq\'ing two horses who sprung out of the gate on a dime? Many brushes and bumps happen because the bumped horse is usually getting outrun by a faster horse at the time.

In a borderline case like this, you really need to leave the result stand.

[JR]

The 3 was bumped and steadied. This was definitely pass interference.

[davidrex]

Like the reference to pass interference!

[alm]

Since I had a relatively large bet on the horse that finished second (straight and doubles) I started counting my money after watching the head-on view.  No way the winner should stay up,or so I thought.

They showed the head-on about 3 times, then switched to a side view, which shows hardly anything with this type of infraction.  They showed the side view about 10 times and I knew I was screwed.  The track was managing the crowd.

I remember back to a big filly stakes race at Aqueduct in the late 60s or early 70s when Laffit Pincay used his front runner Manta to shut down Cathy Honey on the rail.  He put her in contact with the rail to be exact. Manta was the favorite and got disqualified and a full-scale riot broke out in the stands.  Fans started several fires and cops and Pinkertons worked for an hour getting them under control.

Stewards probably have long memories.

[miff]

John Veitch, chief steward of Kentucky Racing discussed this particular ruling in depth. In several jurisdictions(NY and KY included) the stewards are empowered to make judgement calls, in other places a foul is an automatic DQ period!.

The ruling in this case was that in the judgement of the NY stewards, the horse that was fouled, #3, would not have finished better than he did and therefore the infraction by the winner was deemed \"insufficient\"to DQ him.

If you watch the reply carefully it is fairly evident that the winner would have won without the bump and the three would have been 4th.Given the discertionary power, it was not a terrible call.Unlike the days of old( I too remember Yonkers being torched) players today just yell and scream, don\'t see fires anymore, ahhh the good old days.


Mike

[NoCarolinaTony]

Miff,

Do you mean like when we had dirt......

NC Tony

[miff]

Tony,


There\'s a dirt race meet on now called Saratoga, suggest you check it out between \"adjusting\" to the swerving at Del Mar.


Mike

[marcus]

I wasn\'t too surprised with the ruling , IMO - The option for the DQ and placing the winner last was also viable on a few levels as well . . .

[NoCarolinaTony]

Miff,

I don\'t bet Cali unless I\'m staying late at a simulcast joint, even when they had dirt. I\'ve been betting SARATOGA for 30+ years. Was there opening weekend, in fact had the All stakes P4 for $20 on Whitney day in a 1x2x1x3 play. Heard Alan\'s seminar and all. Saw Jimbo there. Met Richiebee, Where were you?

In fact a horse I own in partnership raced at the SPA yesterday R1 on (get this)  Dirt. She also ran well on Poly at Arlington, and Dirt at CD.

I have chosen to not limit myself like you\'ve chosen to do(your money, nothing wrong with that). I am not all that worked up about DELMAR. Never been a big followe of Cali breds and Speed only surfaces of old. Never really have been a big follower of DELMAR racing with SARATOGA racing going on.

I don\'t think you really know me yet

NC Tony

[miff]

Tony,

Good for you on the hit.I prefer hanging around town, grab a bagel at Manhattan on Broadway or Spa Park.Like to let them race a while before I get too involved. This year, heard the ATM cash machine lines were longer than the cashiers esp with only 22% chalks winning.Will get there for my 35th or so straight year and was one of the few early on when Alan did his thing back when.

Re synthetics, if you don\'t like the anti- poly posters(like me) then why reply. You do not seem to care about what is objectionable to us about the surface. Any student of race shape, pace, internals and racing on the whole knows poly is a garbage surface robbing the fast and helping the slow, the antithesis of racing.


To each his own.



Mike