ten cent supers and 50 cent trifectas

[1st time lasix]

Wonder how the lower denomination wagers are affecting the pools at the tracks that offer them. I know my group at the simulcast venue {where we can\'t get the same bets} are now completely avoiding the tris and supers at those tracks. Since we try to structure our tickets for underlay value ...{splitting favorites, only using chaulk underneath etc} we feel there is dilution to our occasional winners. The price is now too cheap so gamblers {not handicappers} use the all button and spread their tickets much more easily.

[high roller]

you could keep doing that but you would be wrong. its amazing to me that some people think that a 10 cent super makes an imbecile suddenly a savvy handicapper.

[1st time lasix]

Wouldn\'t suggest that a 10 cent super or 50 cent trifectas would make a savvy handicapper...quite the opposite. The ridiculously low cost allows \"All\" players with blind luck to hurt the savvy handicapper with some skill who creatively structures a triple or super ticket around a vulnerable favorite.   Less chance to hit a monster life-style changing ticket ...if several consortium groups are going all, all, with a couple of public choices underneath.

[JohnTChance]

Two points regarding this are made in Steve Crist\'s new book, EXOTIC BETTING.

1. A superfecta that pays $48,000 for $1 will be reduced by $12,000 in federal withholding. However a dime superfecta that returns $4,800 for 10 cents will NOT be subject to withholding because it falls below the $5,000 threshold. For this reason, superfecta players should consider making their bets in dime increments wherever possible. Ask your favorite teller [or your favorite SAM machine] to \"repeat.\" \"Repeat that 10 times, please.\"

2. Fears that the 10-cent superfecta somehow hurts \"the big bettor\" is short-sighted. Remember the days of the $5 exacta? Dropping the minimum by a factor of 5 has led to an explosion of the exacta pools through greater participation of the unsophisticated player. In the long run, the good players benefit.

[Michael D.]

JTC,

get 4.8g gambling and the fed\'s not interested?

maybe not that second, but if that super\'s not on your return by april 1, expect one of those ugly IRS envelopes in the mail by april 30.

[JohnTChance]

I didn\'t say they\'re not interested. I said they won\'t withold. Of course, we\'re obliged at the proper time to [ahem... cough] report all our winnings to the IRS. I\'m sure nobody here has ever misrepresented gambling income won at the track to Uncle Sam.

[Michael D.]

they either withhold or you pay the fed interest rate when you file (or when you get the notice). the IRS knows if you go to the window a bunch of times to collect on the same bet.

yes, it\'s a different story if you cheat.

[JohnTChance]

Not only does the IRS know if you go to the windows a bunch of times to collect on the same bet, they can also tell how many holes are in your underwear, Michael D.!

[ezgoer89]

JohnTChance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two points regarding this are made in Steve
> Crist\'s new book, EXOTIC BETTING.
>
> 1. A superfecta that pays $48,000 for $1 will be
> reduced by $12,000 in federal withholding. However
> a dime superfecta that returns $4,800 for 10 cents
> will NOT be subject to withholding because it
> falls below the $5,000 threshold. For this reason,
> superfecta players should consider making their
> bets in dime increments wherever possible. Ask
> your favorite teller  to \"repeat.\" \"Repeat that 10
> times, please.\"

Steven Crist is giving VERY bad advice. This is similar to someone trying to deposit more than $10,000 cash in a bank by coming in Monday through Friday and depositing $2,000 each day... it doesn\'t work.  The Treasury Department is very interested in why you have $10k cash just like the IRS will see that you have multiple tickets bought to specifically avoid the \"at the window\" withholding. Here\'s the law, right from the IRS website:

Identical Wagers
Winnings from identical wagers (for example, two $2 bets on a particular horse to win the same race) are added together for purposes of the reporting and withholding requirements. Also, winnings from identical wagers that are not part of the payment for which the Form W-2G is being prepared are added together for purposes of withholding to determine if the total amount of proceeds from identical wagers is more than $5,000.


I personally know someone who was dumb enough not to report a $2k winner and was subsequently audited and fined.  It\'s not worth the money you\'re trying to save. Take your winnings and be happy.

[NoCarolinaTony]

Damn that partiot Act......

NC Tony

[NoCarolinaTony]

Always declare the winnings, but always offset your winnings with losses. Save your losing tickets,programs,TG\'s etc(or pdf\'s). and if gambling is your profession than you don\'t need to hear from me.

Sorry to say,  this is a good of a topic as any on hear lately.

NC Tony

[Boscar Obarra]

 Give the other 9 winning supers away as Xmas presents.

 Better yet, donate them to the \"Open Borders Foundation\".

 Tax avoidence rulez.

[JohnTChance]

Ezgoer89,

Though Steve surely gets into the absurdities of the IRS regulations on horse race gambling in his book, by no means does he say not to lawfully report all your winnings. [Actually, he says the opposite: he says keep impeccable records; don\'t use \"10-percenters\" to sign illegally for you when you hit a biggie; etc. etc.]

So I feel his \"advice\" is good. And it doesn\'t apply to your friend with the 2k.

Also, in one scenario, the IRS immediately withholds 12k of a 48k take. You lawfully report it later, perhaps to have some or all of it refunded to you. In another scenario, a bettor takes the entire 48k home with him, puts it in the bank, gets interest on it, and lawfully reports the episode later to the IRS. Which scenario is better? Personally, I prefer to pay later and take the interest. Similarly, if you hit a trifecta paying $650 for $2 on a $2 ticket, you\'ll have to fill out a W-2G. Hit it for $325 twice on separate $1 tickets, and you duck the paperwork. Instead of enduring the eternal wait of having a Saratoga teller fill out paperwork, take your picture, and offer stimulating conversation all the while, you\'re free to get an ice cream cone. Steve\'s idea of betting trifectas in $1 units [and telling the teller to \"repeat that ticket\"] is good advice.

As far as depositing 2k five times vs. 10k all at once, it\'s NOT similar to what Steve was saying. People can deposit money into a bank in any way that pleases them. If it\'s flagged, tell investigators a strange concept: the truth as to how you got it. [Steve says when he was audited by the IRS, they \"really just wanted to confirm that I gambled regularly and wasn\'t somehow laundering money for criminals.\"]

Finally... the unsaid dark side of the issue. Forgive me, but I think that most people misrepresent their actual absolute gambling winnings to the IRS. [Somehow. Someway. Yes. They cheat! In this here US of A! Alert the media immediately!] Of course, in the Bizzarro world of online chat forums, people will be be bold and tell about how honest they are - of course, behind the curtain of a fake name - about their reporting of their absolute gambling winnings. In some cases, I can believe them. Most of the time, however, I don\'t.

[ezgoer89]

JohnTChance Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ezgoer89,
>
> Also, in one scenario, the IRS immediately
> withholds 12k of a 48k take. You lawfully report
> it later, perhaps to have some or all of it
> refunded to you. In another scenario, a bettor
> takes the entire 48k home with him, puts it in the
> bank, gets interest on it, and lawfully reports
> the episode later to the IRS. Which scenario is
> better? Personally, I prefer to pay later and take
> the interest.

Well, find me a horseplayer who walks out of a track with $48k and and subsequently places it in the bank to get 3% interest in a six-month CD. Assuming you can find a horseplayer who would do this, you now make about $750 (minus eventual taxes) in interest to take off the $12k bill you owe for the $48k total win.

Let\'s take the more common situation where someone gets to take home the $48k, blows a good part of it, doesn\'t save $12k for taxes, and gets in financial trouble on April 15. That\'s not a good scenario.

Risk v Reward?

[Michael D.]

John,

you wrote:

\"Also, in one scenario, the IRS immediately withholds 12k of a 48k take. You lawfully report it later, perhaps to have some or all of it refunded to you. In another scenario, a bettor takes the entire 48k home with him, puts it in the bank, gets interest on it, and lawfully reports the episode later to the IRS. Which scenario is better?\"

again, the IRS knows if you go to the window multiple times to collect on a signer. you can check \"no\" in the \"do you have duplicate wagers\" box, but the IRS system matches these things up. you will take the 48g home with you, put it in the bank, collect the interest, get a notice in the mail from the IRS, then wind up paying the interest right back to the fed (at a higher rate no doubt). you might also face penalties.

 if you are going to cheat, well, you shouldn\'t be going to the window yourself at all.

when it comes to amounts around the $600 lvl, it\'s a different story, as you say. if it\'s a $400 payoff for a buck, you don\'t want to be holding a $2 ticket. i usually try to bet in the smallest possible increment for just this reason.