6 Minutes prior to post in the Preakness...

[jmetro]

Maybe TVG can do some investigative work on what may have led to Barbaro\'s career ending injury.  Gary Stevens is on the payroll, was at Pimlico Saturday, and should be able to expound on what Prado was doing.  Maybe he can explain why the assistant starter was unable to prevent \"Barbaro at the Gate\".  Let the talking heads at TVG get complete tapes from Gulfstream Park and Churchill Downs and examine Barbaro\'s pre-race warm ups for his previous three races, and see if his pre-race Preakness was the norm, or tell tale signs of a horse not reading to run.

I would imagine Matz, Prado, et.al, will be making statements sometime this week in regards to the whole matter.  I\'ll hold judgement until then.

 

[marcus]

I\'m amoung the few and fotunate for having my last rites given to me 3 different times after getting run over by a truck just before 17 yo and while things have turned out ok - The Doctors were wrong about alot and in disagreement ( and still are some 30+ yrs later ) about even more .

 I had to make  decisions based on all of what I was hearing and common sense .  Not to long afterward  I went to see a real sioux uipi man - a medicine man  and we focused on some things which were out of bounds for conventional \"white medicine \" .

My view on Barbaro\'s Vet saying that no pre exsisting conditions were evident from his expert observations are acceptable - however  it is still entierly possible that something was there  which the tests and medical technology aren\'t picking up on ...

Based on my personal experience and just to cover all the base\'s and close the deal ,  The added value of getting a \" good \"medicine man \" to see and talk to the horse might prove imeasurable - though I doubt it would be covered by insurence   .

 Dr. Richardson and entire mecical team involved w/ Barbaro are owed a huge debt beyond monetary terms for all their  skills and expetise and , heroism - they\'ve  worked a kind of miracle irregardless of what the future might hold for the horse now ...
Based on the post - op pitures and footage ( of the injury leg ) that I\'ve seen on TV and on the internet , the horse Looks in excellent spirit .  

[gambler]

It is not the job of TVG to investigate. Their sole purpose is to sweep things under the rug as not to hurt the industry, and to hide racing\'s dirty little secret: about how steroids are destroying the breed and causing changes in race horses\' skeletal structure, and weakening them to the point where a breakdown is inevitable. If something isn\'t done to get rid of steroids and other drugs in racing then this will no doubt happen again, and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about \"damage to the sport\", and the cheaters will keep on killing horses for a short-term gain. Have the dopers taken such control over the sport that we can make a million and one excuses and theories as to why this happened but ignore the most obvious reason???

[alm]

I posted a few messages about this subject, so this is a repeat.

Those of you who assume something was wrong with this horse before the race are quite correct.  A condylar fracture, which was the cause of the bad step and the subsequent fractures to Barbaro\'s sesamoid and pastern, occurs from preexisting conditions.

It has to do with immature or soft bones and the reformation or flattening of the condylar in the ankle or pastern socket, due to the pounding of training and racing.  Tale of the Cat is the poster boy of what happens if you stop on a promising juvenile and allow his bones time to harden with age.  He came back super and achieved a good career.

Nobody connected with Barbaro will want to admit they knew about his problem, but almost all of us would have done the same thing they did.  This was a very fast horse capable of winning at the highest level and the Triple Crown only comes once in a horse\'s life.  

He was medicated to avoid the pain and showed no gimpiness in his stride as a result.  He was raced lightly to keep the damage to a minimum, but it was getting worse all the time and I suppose it eventually got so bad that Prado could feel it in the warmup.  

Basically this involves damage to the soft tissue below the condylar, which is invisible to ordinary xrays.  Fractures occur when the tissue is worn completely through and bone hits bone.

I lost a horse in a race this way and learned what I am writing about through research.  You could look it up.

Those of you naive enough to think these vets know everything and are always honest should just keep in mind what some vets bring to this business.  It\'s not their job to protect the breed, but rather to protect their client\'s investments...and occasionally more.

[marcus]

exactly right , and i doubt whether the same test(s) or method of examination were used to make a determination on Barbaro that  were used in the studys which sightsound refers to ( in the rear breakdown link ) that seem to make a good case for pre-ex cond ...

[Michael D.]

alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Nobody connected with Barbaro will want to admit
> they knew about his problem, but almost all of us
> would have done the same thing they did.  This was
> a very fast horse capable of winning at the
> highest level and the Triple Crown only comes once
> in a horse\'s life.  
>
> He was medicated to avoid the pain and showed no
> gimpiness in his stride as a result.  He was raced
> lightly to keep the damage to a minimum, but it
> was getting worse all the time and I suppose it
> eventually got so bad that Prado could feel it in
> the warmup.  


alm,

you are stating as fact that:

1) the connections of barbaro knew about an existing injury to the leg
2) barbaro had been treated for the injury with medication
3) the injury had been getting worse and worse

where did you get this info?

 

[davidrex]

We have known for decades what happens to these animals when speed and precocious breeding engulf 2 /3 yr. olds.
The carrot is hung for all to grab.
HOW CAN YOU LAY BLAME ON ANYONE,IN ANY PART OF THIS INDUSTRY,WHEN THE RESIDUE TO FAST HORSES IS DEAD ANIMALS FROM BEGINNING TO END.
They die breeding,giving birth, in the field, breaking, training,drugs(licit and illicit).
CTMC would probly say(and I concur),there is no level playing field,and suspecting chicanery is involved with any outcome is to be pre-disposed. Either figure it in your fixed expenses or move on...but please stop w/the conspiracy theories...ITS BROKE AND YOU CAN\'T FIX IT!!!

[miff]

ALM,


I\'m one of the naive ones that believes Dr.Dean Richardson,
Chief of Surgery at the George Widner Hospital for large animals at the World Class New Bolton Equine Center.Why would he lie, as you suggest?

He emphatically said he could see no damage of any preexisting injury which is often the case,but not here.




Mike

[jmetro]

ALM,

You stated after the Derby that Barbaro was \"getting better\" and that Matz was \"to be congratulated for saving something for the next two races\".  You made no mention of an impending breakdown and even stated the other Derby runnres had been overworked to the point of stress.  Now you act as if you knew Barbaro\'s injury was there all along.  Which is it?

 

[TGJB]

Miff-- you are making 2 basic assumptions:

1-- that if there was a pre-existing injury to that leg he would be able to see it. One of the posts mentioned microfractures-- he presumably wouldn\'t be able to see those without a microscope.

2-- That the pre-existing injury was to the same spot.

My belief for a long time has been that what happens is similar to when a pitcher gets an injury, and compensates by changing his delivery-- that much power and torque used wrong can destroy an arm. When horses get something that causes them to be knocked out, uncomfortable, sore, or anything up to and including an actual injury, they can\'t tell you about it. But they can try to get off it-- and stress or break something else in so doing. A thousand pounds moving fast and coming down on something 3 inches wide creates tremendous pressure, and the slightest deviation of mechanics can be devastating.

Many excellent posts the last couple of days, very high level. The study showing the dramatic increase in chance of injury by increased racing and works was great, as was the one that mentioned the \"nuclear scan\" (don\'t remember the technical name of the device). That thing is a godsend-- if you suspect a horse has a problem (in my case by looking at the sheet) but can\'t find it, you have him scanned, and \"hot spots\" light up. We recently did it with Santana Strings, and his whole back lit up-- he had been running with a pulled back muscle, which wouldn\'t show up on any x-ray. You keep running a horse with a problem like that, who knows what happens.

[miff]

JB,

My basic assumption is that the highest level of expertise possible, Dr.Richardson says one thing and all others, amateurs, say another. Pick one.

Mike

[TGJB]

Miff-- a lot of serious experts were involved in those vet studies that were posted here. And the doc was doing a purely visual inspection, of only one area. And as I said, without a scan you can\'t tell about certain things, no matter who looks-- trust me on that one, I\'ve been through it dozens of times. By the time something shows, even to a vet, it\'s too late.

[imallin]

If Dr Richardson says there WAS damage, than an incredible amount of scrutiny comes on Michael Matz. Why would the Dr want to throw Matz under the bus? After all, whether there was damage or not, doesn\'t really matter at this point. Also, for insurance purposes, if he says there was damage, there could be some kind of situation with the insurance company should barbaro be put down.

i cant imagine the insurance company will want to pay off if matz and company ran a lame horse.

[miff]

Jerry,

I agree and was not at all referring to the studies done by the vet experts regarding breakdowns.I was referring specifically to Barbaro and those talking conspiracy with NO first hand knowledge.


Very intersting is the shoe thing.As you know a majority of the NY based trainers use bends, caulks or both.One Hall of Famer(Jerkens) uses them exclusively while another, Shug, said that he felt caulks enhance a horses chances of\"jamming up\" and rarely(if ever) uses them.

Re shoes, last year at Saratoga,that guy alledgedly took down $100k in one week betting on \"shoes\" exclusively.There was someone nearly on the ground looking, as you said.

Since you have the data, can George check winners, by category, with bends, caulks, and without as a percentage over a reasonable period, wet tracks separate.

Mike

[miff]

\"i cant imagine the insurance company will want to pay off if matz and company ran a lame horse.\"


Imallin,


I do not recall anyone remotely suggesting he looked lame.You thought so?Regarding insurance, the company does their own evaluation and they issued a policy, assuming there is one.The conspiracy theory would have great credence if this horse \"failed\" insurance evaluation and is not insured.


Mike