Response to Jake's post on the Ragozin Board

[TGJB]

Nothing above this was me, and I do get a kick out of it when you insult civilians thinking it’s me. You’re obviously going to take this down, but that’s fine—this isn’t an attempt to win hearts and minds, it’s me calling you and your pals assholes.

You’ve got balls, pal. First of all, Joe Friedberg is one of the most respected attorneys in the U.S.—ask around. He was the plaintiff’s attorney in the Dalkon Shield class action case, and his clients have included Prince, the Vikings coach, and the former Senator from Minnesota. Ask your own lawyer about him—if he doesn’t know him, fire him.

Secondly, the letter he wrote to you was accompanied by transcripts of tapes of Ragozin employees lying about me and my company. You have yet to reply to that letter in any forum. So your attempt to make HIM look sleazy makes you…what?

Meanwhile, when are you going to put up the full Belmont Day card? Or, do you like your chances better if you keep your customers ignorant?

[PhilR]

I\'ve been using the Rags for several years now with solid success....I\'ve seen your numbers before and find them to be at least as useful as the Rags numbers....

I\'ve wanted to switch to your product for a few months now because of the customer service (electronic downloads)....

The reason I have not is because of posts like these....I know you think that by airing these differences in this forum you will get customers from Ragozin....Just thought you might want to know that it is keeping at least one customer (and probably more) from making the switch...

You need to realize that most players do not know or care about the history between the two of you...We just want a solid product (which you both deliver) with solid customer service (which you do better than Ragozin)....I just choose to not do business with someone who seems so bitter and angry..

Just thought you might want to know

[superfreakicus]

while I wouldn\'t switch, regardless, this is the kind of thing that\'s thoroughly removed all temptation and curiousity over the years.

I think maybe jerry should get himself a quality frontman like ragozin got.

[TGJB]

First of all, it\'s easy to not read the posts. But more to the point--the situation is that the Ragozin employees have lied about us to customers, among other things (that\'s what the tapes and letter are all about)--the differences are that they do it in person, not on the internet (where lies can be refuted), and that we don\'t lie. If you feel defending myself is just \"airing differences\", then I\'m not going to get your business, and I\'ll live without it. And if you think Jake\'s crack is acceptable and my response unacceptable, I don\'t want your business.

I would also add that since we ended our relationship with the DRF in March, almost all our marketing is done right here. Business is way up, so obviously not everyone agrees with you.

[TGJB]

Yeah, then I could be losing customers to them, instead of the other way around. I was hoping you would stick around.

[superfreakicus]

this kind of sarcasm is symptomatic of the anger and bitterness phil was talking about.

what\'s always amazed me about all this, is that you can completely rip off your former employer\'s product, set up shop \'a couple doors down\' undercutting him by a couple bucks w/your knockoff, and YOU\'RE the angry victim??!

if all that wasn\'t bad enough, you\'ve insisted on continually harassing him on his own site, and pushing your own product there to stuff another couple dollars in your pocket to fund your 8 horse boxes --- you should be ashamed of yourself.

having said all that, I don\'t have any personal grudge against you, jerry, and as evidenced by my original reply (a couple weeks ago) to your query on my opinion of your peter pan #\'s, I don\'t come here to bash you or your #\'s.
the honest fact is, I have little experience w/your #\'s, but simply based on my observations of YOU, YOUR behavior, and YOUR judgement, I really have no wish to find out.

now, why don\'t you start up an actual handicpping thread, so we can get away from the \'As The World Turns\', for a day, and you can continue w/your quixotic quest to show up ragozin.

[tegger]

Dear Soup & Nuts,

You want nothing to do with JB and his product yet you have managed to post 114 times and at least 75% of those posts included negative comments about JB or TG.  Why do you post here if you want nothing to do with JB or TG?

Even more importantly, don\'t you think it is amazing that JB sees fit to allow you to post over a hundred times yet any posts by JB or his allies on Rags is immediately deleted?

You have a point about JB starting up a business very similar to Rags but that is certainly the American way.  There would only be one manufacturer of each product if copycat products that are either cheaper or better were never made.  There would only be Coke and no Pepsi!  Besides, Rags are socialist so they shouldn\'t be so bitter about sharing the wealth.

Here\'s a quote from you:

having said all that, I don\'t have any personal grudge against you, jerry, and as evidenced by my original reply (a couple weeks ago) to your query on my opinion of your peter pan #\'s, I don\'t come here to bash you or your #\'s.
the honest fact is, I have little experience w/your #\'s, but simply based on my observations of YOU, YOUR behavior, and YOUR judgement, I really have no wish to find out.

That doesn\'t sound too much like a person with a grudge! Why post on this site so frequently if you so hate him, his behavior and his judgement and have no desire to use his product?  Are you just an altruistic soul looking to save us from ourselves?  While JB can be quite caustic and short of patience at times his customer service is certainly far superior to Rags.

These boards become choked by people with non-handicapping agendas such as you and David (sometimes G.) Patent.  In addition, I don\'t know a handicapper alive that would not buy either Rags or TG if they thought the product would make them winners despite what they thought of Len or Jerry.  Some might even be induced to sell selected family members if it would give them more winners!

[Friendly]

Great post superfreak!!

Jer, instead of bringing up the \"letter\" and tapes week after week and acting surprised when they don\'t respond to your nonsense, why don\'t you actually do something with it? Either file a slander suit or cram that letter somewhere - it got old a long time ago.


Jerry, JR.

[Friendly]

tegger, you said, \"In addition, I don\'t know a handicapper alive that would not buy either Rags or TG if they thought the product would make them winners despite what they thought of Len or Jerry. Some might even be induced to sell selected family members if it would give them more winners!\"

This contradicts one of Jerry\'s assertions, that people are too scared to buy his product at the track because they fall victim to pressure and intimidation. I\'m glad to see that I\'m not the only one that believes he is just being paranoid.

[tegger]

Junior,

As always, leave it to Rags to completely distort every comment.  If someone intimidated that I might be physically harmed if I purchased TG and I thought the threat to be legitimate then I would probably not buy the product.  However, you are right that I would not give in to peer pressure if I thought one product was better than the other.  I would use the superior product and relentlessly heckle the losers using the inferior product.

If lies are spread about a product, consumers might be hesitant to try the new product.  If a large group spread the false rumor that Pepsi bottling employees spit in the cans at the factory then Pepsi would have had a very hard time getting existing Coke drinkers to try their product.  Hence, they would have a legitimate grievance claim against Coke.

[tonyk]

I agree the bottom line is making scores, who cares about age old beefs and gripes,anyway?I  think arguement is good if something is learned from it ,but if not it really dosen\'t matter .I know little of this beef ,but it seems to me that JB worked with the rag guys then recognized that there could be some improvement, so that is what he did .I am very glad there are out there with that kind of insight .This is not a game where one can afford to sit still .

[tonyk]

The guys who have the most influence on the outcome  of a sporting event are not always the performers ,in hoops and football it\'s the refs,in horse racing it\'s the track supers .These guys have more control than the general public thinks .I\'ve seen with my own eyes tracks being sealed and harrowed ,then resealed. As long as this goes on you have to stay on top of this stuff .I\'m sure the track supers are in for a score themselves .If you don\'t take that into account your crazy . I look at it like this ,they had the run of the roost for years ,then come along these sheet guys and their prices start getting banged ,so they have to start adjusting to keep the public off balance.So with that I agree that you have to always be adjusting the variant.

[Friendly]

tegger,

I never said anyone was physically threatened. If you are insinuating that is Jerry\'s position then I\'d like to hear more about the specifics. I always thought Jerry meant his potential clients felt intimidated to buy his knock-off, lest they be ridiculed by the big bettors that use The Sheets.

However, I always found this to be laughable and symptomatic of his paranoid nature. Bettors would buy his product in a heartbeat IF it were any good. They\'d just avoid the alleged hecklers.

Jerry, JR.

[Friendly]

teekay,

Somehow I don\'t think that is quite how it happened. Perhaps poppa Jer would like to tell us the circumstances of his departure from The Sheets??

Jerry, JR.

[tonyk]

Like I said it dosen\' really matter ,if you can handicap better using one product over another then that\'s what you have to go with .CAN\'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG.