Question for JB or anyone with parimutuel knowledge

[JR]

This question is in regard to scratches and refunds.

I placed a $1 pick 4 wager at Saratoga on the 5th of Sept. I had the 2+6+7+8/3+4+7/1-6/1+4+10+11 making up a $288 ticket. The 5 won the first leg knocking me out. In the second leg, the 3 was a late scratch. There was no refund on my ticket? Granted, with the 5 winning the first leg, I had a losing ticket, but, with the 3 being a late scratch in the second leg, shouldn\'t the ticket have cost me only $192? Aren\'t they charging me for a bet on horse that didn\'t start? Actually, 96 bets?

Thanks

[twoshoes]

JR,

You had a bet. Had you still been alive you would have received the post time favorite in the 2nd leg as an alternate to the horse that was scratched late, at least in NY.

Mark

[JR]

I understand their policy. I\'m debating whether it is reasonable. My bet was a 4x3x6x4 and I only got a 4x2x6x4 chance. It just seems like they\'re offerring a prop and then canceling that prop. It seems it amounts to a cancelation of a contract. They ought to cancel the bet as well. And that getting the post time favorite thing has always been bullshit.

[twoshoes]

I agree with you on your post time favorite assessment and I\'m not defending the way this is determined but simply put - you had a wager. If you had still been alive you would have had three betting interests in the second leg. The fact that you didn\'t have the winner in the first leg doesn\'t mitigate that fact. I am an avid fan of pick 4 wagers... this is one of the pitfalls.

Good luck in the future.

[jimbo66]

JR,

You bring out a situation which is handled differently at the tracks than it is when you bet offshore.  But I don\'t believe the tracks have a choice.  Let me try to explain why, changing your example slightly.

Let\'s say you had a ticket that was 1x2x4x2, a total of 16 combinations.  

You bet it at the track and you bet it offshore.  

You lost your single in the first race.  You lost the second race.  You lost the third race.  In the fourth race, there is a gate scratch on one of your two horses.  How many people at the track would still be holding their tickets with three losing legs?  Unless they were holding for offset against IRS winnings, not many.  No refund at the track, you would get the post time favorite instead of the scratched horse, which is a moot point since you already had a dead ticket.

However, if you bet the race offshore, they don\'t grade the tickets until after the last race and you would get a refund on half of your ticket.  This happened to me on Friday with Inamorato, who I singled heavily in the pick 4.  He was in the second leg and I had missed the first leg.  When Inamorato was scratched about 4 minutes to post, I got my full wager back.

I know my example isn\'t the same as yours, but the tracks need to have a consistent policy and I think that giving a refund if a horse scratches in the first leg, and defaulting to the post time favorites in any of the next 3 legs is probably the most workable solution.

[JR]

Thanks Jimbo. Actually, your example illustrates very well what I was getting at. I think the offshore policy is reasonable.

[colt]

I strongly disagree with the notion of refunds for pick-4s.  Without the current practices in effect – post-time favorites in place of late scratches, the final pool for this type of wagers would amount to nothing.  The likelihood of a large score for this type of play is the lure for many players.  Alternate selections (returning feature for So Cal) are probably the way to go, as was the case at the recent concluded Del Mar meet for the pick-6 sequence (on-track only).

[Delmar Deb]

Jimbo:

I did not know that about off-shore Pick 4\'s.  Do they do the same thing if you have a single in the Pick 6 scratch?

And please excuse my ignorance on this point...but if the off-shore location places the wagers through a racetrack hub, do they recover the money to be refunded (as a result of a scratch somewhere in the sequence) from the track pools?  

If so, then no wonder the whales bet off-shore!  In Vegas you have to get the book manager to OK a change in your ticket if the scratch occurs in the first leg!

[JR]

That\'s crazy! Late scratches, unless they are the favorite, would have little effect on the final size of the pool because they would account for such a small percentage of the total wagers. Besides, I\'m not betting on horses so that I can swell somebody elses pool. I\'m betting on them because I\'m trying to buy a winning ticket!

[jimbo66]

Deb,

Sorry, I should clarify.  When I say \"offshore\", I don\'t mean rebate shops, I mean offshore sportsbooks, in which the money does not go into the track pools.  

Most of the sportsbooks don\'t take pick-6 wagers, since their liability would be too big.