Beyer

[twoshoes]

I guess we can add Andy to the ranks...

Most horse owners, trainers, bettors and fans perceive that the widespread use of illegal drugs is ruining the sport. Yet for years, leaders and regulators of the thoroughbred industry have failed to address the problem in any meaningful way.
Drugs, including concoctions aimed at speeding muscle recovery, have debased the wonderful game of handicapping. Bettors now routinely place more emphasis on the identity of the trainer than the ability of the horse -- understandably so, when miracle-working trainers transform horses overnight and achieve winning percentages that defy all historical precedents...

...  The California system may suggest that the best way to police the sport is to require that all horses go to a detention barn 24 hours before they race. Certainly, the traditional method -- testing horses after they race -- hasn\'t worked because the cheaters always stay a step ahead of the chemists. With effective tests for milkshakes in force, trainers looking for an edge will move on to something else. (According to racetrack scuttlebutt, some are treating horses with a painkiller 1,000 times as strong as morphine: the venom of the Conus snail, found in the Great Barrier Reef of Australia.)Instead of depending on chemists to develop tests for snail venom and other illegal substances, the sport could forestall much cheating by putting horses under strict surveillance before they compete. Most trainers -- even the honest ones -- don\'t like the idea of taking horses out of their normal environment before a race. Racetrack owners worry about the cost of implementing such a system. But the drug problem in racing constitutes a crisis that demands some difficult choices. Perhaps the developments in Kentucky and California signify that the industry is ready to make them.

Full link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64161-2005Mar1.html

[Saddlecloth]

I hade heard that this was being written.  I just wish even more articles came out like this, unforunately when you write for a magazine in the industry its hard to crtitize.

How about the bit about the painkiller that is 1000 times stronger then morphine!

[richiebee]

... and the fact that it was published in DC gives a chance for a Senator or Congressman to become aware of the \"problem\"...

[razzle]

Thanks twoshoes. I printed it on the other board.  It gave me a chance to add Beyer in the Post to my fav sites.  

When you read these references to the powerful chemicals being used, like snail venom, you can only stand in awe of the accuracy of the numbers of both of these products, and the willingness of both LF and JB to publicly post their very telling comments about the magic of the ti-trainers.  

One also has to wonder what kind of a person would force a horse who is sore/injured to run on such a chemical.  When all the number makers, Sheets,TG and Beyer, indicate a \"pattern of magic\" it should constitute enough of a prima facia case to suspend any awards, especially an Eclipse, and be sufficient to cause that ti-trainers\' horses to go to a detention barn and/or their blood/urine samples to be frozen. raz

[elkurzhal]

Apparently originally developed as SNX-111 by Neurex.
\'96 article...
http://grimwade.biochem.unimelb.edu.au/~bgl/cone-snx.htm

Now FDA approved and being sold under the name, Prialt, by Elan.
http://www.elan.com/Images/PRIALTFactSheet_tcm3-7759.pdf

Sounds like some potent stuff.
http://www.prialt.com/downloads/product_information.pdf

Barried in the product info it states that the concentration of the drug in halved every 4.6 hours.  Thus after 24 the concentration would be less than 5% of the initial level.



Post Edited (03-02-05 12:03)

[TGJB]

The good news about Andy\'s article is his call for a detention barn, and his continued focus on the issue in general-- he and Harvey Pack hosted a panel at the Expo about \"Supertrainers\" last year, and I woke up early to go see it. It ended up being pretty tame, but it was good that they made a public issue of it.

The bad news-- he is completely misguided in thinking that the recent steps in Kentucky are significant in stopping what is going on. The opposite is true. None of the drugs now disallowed were performance enhancers, and the way this game works everyone involved in Kentucky racing is going to sit back thinking that the public is happy, so they\'ve solved the problem. They haven\'t, any more than they did a few years ago when they banned milkshakes, BUT DIDN\'T TEST FOR THEM.

Richie-- you are missing the point with the \"guilty until proved innocent\" comment. No one here is saying that a court of law should assign penalties, or that the move-up guys should be suspended simply for winning. But those of us paying attention can make informed decisions, form opinions, and post them, based on the circumstantial evidence of very sophisticated data.

You\'re probably not going to believe this, but there are even some of us who believe O.J. killed a couple of people.

[Thehoarsehorseplayer]

\"If the horse don\'t piss
you must dismiss.\"

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

TGJB wrote:

> You\'re probably not going to believe this, but there are even
> some of us who believe O.J. killed a couple of people.

O.J. was a Heisman Trophy Winner. At one time, he set the NFL rushing record for most yards in a single season.

O.J. dominated his field and he would have dominated it regardless of era.

The murder rap was circumstantial at best and they weren\'t able to prove it. That must mean he didn\'t do it. Why in the world would a man do something like that? Why would folks besmerch someones character over something with absolutely no credible evidence.

Thats not playing fair.

>But those of us paying attention can make informed decisions, form opinions, and post them, based on the circumstantial evidence of very sophisticated data.<

The problem is that there has been a tendency to accuse virtually everyone that has been successful at improving horses and winning a lot of races as doing something illegal without due consideration to the \"certainty\" that some trainers, vets, and owners are more talented and have resources that increase the probability of success while doing legal things.  

I\'m not saying you are making accusations like that.

However, the general discussion feels like anyone that is doing very well is drugging their horses and everytime they lose it\'s because it was \"drugs off\".

I know I repeat myself way too often around here, but what\'s the problem with ackowledging that the problem exists without naming names. At least, if a name is mentioned, we should post specific horses and races for discussion so counter points of view on what could account for the performance can be presented.

That way, we aren\'t dragging people\'s names through the mud simply because of incompetent handicapping, suspect information, and misunderstandings of horse performace and improvement cycles.

[Boscar Obarra]

  Isn\'t there a saying, \"There\'s nothing lower than snake venom\"?

  On second thought , I think it\'s snake droppings, and yes there is, the folks who use the venom. I always said these guys will stoop to anything, and now they\'ve stooped to ground level.

  Can you picture one of these guys wearing a Dundee hat , crawling through the outback, cellphone in one hand betting through  the rebaters, a net in the other? Where\'s Peb when we need him.

[richiebee]

Damn, an OJ reference. I hate being called naive. My favorite Bruce song is Spirits in The Night from Greetings from Asbury Park.

In a posting made on March 2 at 18:06 there was a rant, in relation to Crafty Player\'s infamous Sunday score, which contained the following: \"HOT SHOT COMMODITIES BROKER/ HARNESS GUYS/potent vets\".(Emphasis original) We can look in the program to see who the hot shot is, but could we have a little more background on \"harness guys\" and \"potent vets\" at The Meadowlands? This is one I\'m ready to believe, because when I worked on the backside in the early 80s I remember hearing that the exotic performance enhancing \"cocktails\" we all heard about were developed by show horse people in Canada, who pass it on to Canadian harness trainers, and then to US harness trainers, and then to US flat tracks. (Nothing like some 20 year old hearsay.)

In a posting the day before(3/1/05 11:16)was the following \"A great many NY players/racetrackers (including horsemen) believe that Dutrow may be using SOMETHING\" (emphasis original).

I hate being spoken to in a condescending manner. In December 1986, I sold all but one of the horses I owned/trained and took a normal job in Manhattan. I did not sever my ties with the game I love. I would say since January 1987, I have gone to a NYRA track   (live)an average of 8-10 times a month;
on a few other days I may have snuck into an OTB.

I think I may qualify as a player, racetracker or horseman, or all of the above and I THINK DUTROW MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK LAKE MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK IWINSKI MAY BE USING SOMETHING. No, TGJB, I did not forget about Schettino Spring/Summer. I THINK SCHETTINO WAS USING SOMETHING when he was winning above a 25% clip. Let me give a hypothetical: A trainer that wins 10 races all year, but wins 6 of them in a 5 week period, WAS USING SOMETHING FOR THOSE 5 WEEKS.

Here\'s the problem. Until they develop a test for SOMETHING, its not CHEATING. If you choose to play the game, you are really going to have to take SOMETHING into account when choosing what races and horses you play. It will remain that way until we see the proof/ positives. It would not surprise me if we see them next week. It would not surprise me if we never see them.

From the same post, this board, referring to Dutrow, Jr: \"There are many horsemen on the NY circuit with at least equal talent..\" Jeez, even when the guy is trying to say something good, he won\'t name names.

I think Shug McGaughey, Michael Hushion, Allen Jerkens, Kiaran McLaughlin, Nick Zito, Richard Violette, Timothy Hills, Bill Mott are all excellent horsemen. They dont have a stable set up to compete with Dutrow on a year round basis. Except for Hushion, they dont play the claim game. Dutrow also gets what to me is a significant edge by being stabled at Aqueduct most of the year, thus having to ship less than Belmont based trainers. The above trainers are listed in no particular order, and I\'m sure I left some
good trainers off inadvertently


TGJB, your product is state of the art. Your customer service is much appreciated. But even the most loyal users of this product must admit that they are making a leap of faith when they accept the fact that a single digit (if the horse is fast enough)can unequivocally characterize a horse\'s performance on a given day. This performance is usually the result of weeks of training, a minute and a half or so of physical strength and instinct from the jock, not to mention a couple hundred years of breeding. Thats a lot of information to incorporate in one number or a pattern of these numbers. We haven\'t even mentioned vets, pace factors,  track biases, or subtle shoeing/equipment changes.

It\'s even more of a leap of faith to aggregate these numbers and make a conclusion as to WHY these animals run as fast as they do. I do not question the value of your evidence, but we need to see the positives to support it. The 4 milkshakers out West are a start.

Your hosting of this message board shows you believe in free speech. I wish you felt as strongly about the dangers of circumstantial evidence, especially when most of it is couched in hearsay.

Looks like when Classhandicapper \"dropped it\" it fell on me.

I don\'t want to log in one day and see that the ROTW is the Crucible Handicap from Salem Downs.

[Boscar Obarra]

  Hmmm. Nice post richiebee.  

  Lot\'s of guys have been using lots of SOMETHING for many many years. It\'s just that in the age of GrEed and ExcEss , more of them are using it more often. One theory that comes to mind is that betting coups were actually more prevalent in the past. With purses so high now, winning at 6/5 aint so bad.  So they don\'t care about subtlety.

  As for the sheets or anything else \'capturing\' 200 years of breeding and 10 minutes of tubing, hey, ya gots to use something.  The human mind is capable of only so much , and post time is in 5 minutes.

[razzle]

Richiebee,
I apologize in advance for butting in here. I\'ve enjoyed your posts.  You seem anything but naive.  I was confused though, and frustrated, when I thought you were arguing that since we didn\'t have the smoking gun or dripping syringe, we could not assert that these guys were using SOMETHING CHEMICAL to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE in such a way as to distort all forms of play/analysis for those who haven\'t talked to the VET. As I read your last post, you agree with that, you are just objecting to the label \"Cheating\" in cases in which there has been no positive test results.  


Richiebee said:
\"I think I may qualify as a player, racetracker or horseman, or all of the above and I THINK DUTROW MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK LAKE MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK IWINSKI MAY BE USING SOMETHING. No, TGJB, I did not forget about Schettino Spring/Summer. I THINK SCHETTINO WAS USING SOMETHING when he was winning above a 25% clip. Let me give a hypothetical: A trainer that wins 10 races all year, but wins 6 of them in a 5 week period, WAS USING SOMETHING FOR THOSE 5 WEEKS.\"

\"Here\'s the problem. Until they develop a test for SOMETHING, its not CHEATING... It will remain that way until we see the proof/ positives\"
          *****************
Where we may differ is that regardless of the label, the USERS of that SOMETHING are killing this game.  These sheet numbers, given whatever weaknesses they may have, cause those USERS to stand out unequivocably.  

It is also true that in the past, positives have been found but the required \"confirming  postives\" have mysteriously disappeared from the test labs, as in the case of Baffert, Frankel and others in Calif.  It is also true that Baffert had a sudden loss of \"TALENT\" after that. But, until he suddenly lost his \"TALENT\", he killed alot of prices, took a lot of purses, and denied a lot of deserving trainers/owners  of the rightful due of their talent and horsemanship.

I believe it is in all of our best interests to speak with a unified voice in pressuring officials to remove whatever  \"doubt\" remains, whether we call USING PERFORMANCE ENHANCERS or CHEATING by quarantining in detention barns and freezing samples. raz

[miff]

Richiebee Wrote,

Here\'s the problem. Until they develop a test for SOMETHING, its not CHEATING. If you choose to play the game, you are really going to have to take SOMETHING into account when choosing what races and horses you play. It will remain that way until we see the proof/ positives. It would not surprise me if we see them next week. It would not surprise me if we never see them.

Are you kidding? It\'s not cheating to administer a performance enhancing drug/shake because others are doing it??
Rich,you sound like a \"player\" but you don\'t think that some trainers should be seriously eyed with suspicion?

In the absence of any explanation other than horemanship ,Rick Dutrow is the greatest trainer on the New York Circuit, by far.His ability to have his horses run their eyeballs out, CONSISTENTLY, off layoffs along with his overall general excellence is remarkable.

On Sunday,off three days rest, he sent out Crafty Player to a lifetime Pace Top( and maybe TG FIG TOP) in a dead send duel against Smokey Is A Bandit, who was far superior on three different sets of pace figs.I guess that\'s superior horsemanship, or being stabled at Aqueduct. What other explanation could there be?

[richiebee]

I\'d rather be talking about catching a nice price on Naughty New Yorker if Pat Kelly would take Samyn off for the Louisiana Derby, but i can give you a little more on Crafty Player.

On Thursday Feb 24 I was at Aqueduct. My observation of the race was that CP won kind of easily. My friends at the track like to watch the paddock and warm up, I like to watch the gallop out and the pull up. After the race we all concurred that CP had the look of most of the in form Dutrow horses, which is kind of like the old Ferriola and Moschera horses from the late 1980s.

He raced close to the pace that day and was ridden confidently by Beajarano. The race fractions were:

 23.85   46.81    58.87     1:11.68

The fifth race on 2/24 was a 22.5- 25k claimer. The race was won by Ace\'s Capella, trained by LaBocetta (In 03- 04, I thought he was a SOMETHING trainer, now I don\'t know). The fractions in Ace\'s race were:

 23.88  47.20    59.04      1:11.53

A reasonable trainer might observe (without undue over-analysis)that the 25k race was not that much faster than the 12k race. I apologize for how naive that sounds.

My work schedule is such that I must sleep all afternoon Sunday. I didn\'t even know CP was entered. If I had been at Aqueduct, I can probably say I would have leaned into CP pretty heavily at 6/1 and in doubles. Good value, leading rider, leading trainer. An angle you have to like-- top %, or SOMETHING trainer moving a horse up in class.

And here\'s the part of it which is most despicable. If I had been at Aqueduct, and cashed a ticket on CP at $14.20, I wouldn\'t be thinking about snail venom or pigeon milk or shock wave therapy or the need for  detention barns. I would be thinking about $14.20, and how much better that is than  $14.00.