Saved By The Bell...

[Frank]

beyerguy,

I use many sets of TG sheets on a very regular basis and come across what I believe are very questionable figures from time to time. But I can\'t sit here and write that this figure for this horse on this day is an error because I don\'t care to keep records of these things. I believe that the figures are very good, but not without error.

How can the figures be without error given that the art of making variants is so subjective? Would you like to try and defend the position that Jerry & his staff do not make any errors? Jerry has a pretty high opinion of himself and I don\'t think even he wants to defend that position.

Don\'t mistake my attack on a distasteful clown as an attack on Thorograph. I have a high opinion of the work that is done here just as I have a high opinion of the work done across the street. I have at different times used both products exclusively without any significant change in results.  All the us against them stuff is just a bunch of crap and I really don\'t care to participate.

Happy Holidays.

Frank

[TGJB]

Just to be clear-- a lot of figure making is subjective, a lot is based on theory that is either dogmatic, or reality based, and accuracy depends on humans, who make mistakes. We are willing to explain and defend our theories and judgement, and when a human error is pointed out to us, we are willing to fix it if it is called for-- we take our responsibility to our clients seriously. No one is claiming not to make mistakes.

No one HERE.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

All I can say is that \"Frank\" prefaced his involvement in this debate with words to the effect that \"He did not care how figures are made and that working to insure their accuracy did not matter to him because they did not affect his ROI.\" If you doubt my pharaphrasing of the matter, check the thread and decide for yourself. Then he turned around and said he was a TGraph user. Why do I find those statements both self serving and conflicting? I always get a kick out of those that post saying they are using TGraph while they take shots at the concern. Convenient isn\'t it? Anyone hear the \"Terminator Dogs\" barking? (Thats a Classic Silver Charm) Well \"Frank\" I doubt your statements, but I hope you really are using TFigs. With the logic you\'ve demonstrated in a couple posts here, I\'m convinced that you need them. If you are using them you need to reflect upon your debate technique and ask yourself: \"How can I ever trust the other guys when they refuse to fix, let alone acknowledge their errors?\" (And those are issues they\'ve been CAUGHT on.) Think long and hard on that and then consider how you might amend your original post.

Saying something doesn\'t make it true. Regardless of who says it. Rags amply demostrates that when they publish baloney figures. I still don\'t like Japanese that crush out cigarettes with their heels upon the Arizona Memorial and I am an Anti-Zionist. If you understand anything at all about PNAC you would be too. Unless you\'re a Zionist and in that case you\'ll support the Iraq boondoggle and not even God can help you.

TGraph has stated numerous times that modern vet work is impacting the figure. That the medicine is discernable in the number assigned. I\'ve heard it and I believe it, but in practice its very hard to reconcile with handicapping experience. I\'ve questioned TGraphs interpretation of the B.C. Classic since I first heard of the numbers. The other factor of course is Steve Allday. I\'ll keep that in mind as races develope to confirm or disprove my skepticism with the Classic. Can anyone point me to any articles where Allday is the subject? I\'m having a devil of a time finding any material on him.

Thx Jerry on the Silver Charm sales info.

CtC

[beyerguy]

Frank,

There will always be \"questionable\" figures, no matter who makes them.  I cash some nice bets just by knowing when the Beyer guys blow one.  They do it often enough, usually when they inflate a figure do to an extreme fast or slow pace, but sometimes they deflate one because it just looks \"too fast.\"  This is not what I meant by an \"error\" though.  We are talking things you can prove, like ground loss, or using faulty track charts for sprint-route relationships.  Jerry has been asked here a few times that I can recall about specific figures, and he\'s always responded with an answer, including the reasoning behind the figure given.  What more can you ask?



Post Edited (12-23-04 03:39)

[TGJB]

CTC-- Frank does use our data.

You won\'t find too much on Allday-- most everything is word of mouth. You can find posts mentioning him here by using the search.

The politics and other stuff is best left for other forums.

[jimbo66]

CtC,

Not sure why you got so fired up in this chain.  But usually you post horseracing opinions (which I seem to never agree with )

The anti-Bush,anti-Irag and \"retard\" name calling should be kept to yourself.   This isn\'t a political board and there are people who post here who probably are offended by the term \"retard\" as the world is full of mentally handicapped people.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Jerry was clear enough upon that.

The problem was that a charge was leveled against me that I left unanswered for a while and unfortunately you can\'t do that in this P.C. world. If you don\'t defend yourself that kind of garbage can stick, unless you\'re adept at P.C. spin, which I am not, because I reject it outright. If you are adept at putting perceptions over principle then you really can have a retard on your hands and promote it your way. (I\'m sure you can find applications for what I\'ve just said, you needn\'t look much further than the Rag figure error conduct.) It was all related to a some very old tongue in cheek posts that centered around the Japanese buying all our stallions and somehow the conflict in the mid-east wound its way into the nonsense. Which is not all that surprising, because that conflict has very far reaching tentacles.

Are there any other words you would like me to refrain from using Jimbo66?...lol I mean I should know so that I don\'t offend anyone else right? What about \"asskisser\", does that one bother you?...lol I don\'t know, if I was a retard I think I\'d refer to myself as \"mentally challenged\" and then when I heard the insensitive use of the word \"retard\" I would know that it didn\'t apply to me. Maybe it's poor manners, bad grammar and slang that you dislike. That's something we can agree upon, I generally dislike them too, but I despise stupidity most of all.

Well, now Dollase tells us!:

\"He was still a little tender in that area [the day after the Hollywood Futurity],\" his trainer, Craig Dollase, said earlier this week. \"Not pounding on it each day, it should come around fast. We\'ll leave the patch on and let the crack grow out. We\'ll look to challenge Declan\'s Moon again down the road.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/61629.html

Of course, the dilemma is did you believe him then or do you believe him now? Mr Dollase, do you mean to tell us that you ran a horse with an ostensible future on that Hollywood \"track\" with a quarter crack that you \"discovered\" the day before the race? Mr. Dollase, if he\'s really \"still a little tender\", do you consider yourself \"mentally challenged\"?

You have to like the upcoming Malibu. I know its California racing, but a change of surfaces was sorely needed.

An otherwise,

\"Merry Christmas to All\", even Frank, who is finally positioned to at least know how fast horses ran.

CtC



Post Edited (12-24-04 02:49)

[Silver Charm]

Just reading the first sentence of that story gets me feeling good.

The opening day of \"Santa\" Anita always has more than Derby Contenders. I remember two years ago a last race maiden having a winner who went on and did some nice things. His name Southern Image. Also on the undercard there was a 1X sprint that was won by Scrimshaw in 8 and change. Someone I was with remarked \"he beat nothing\". The fading favorite was none other than Ghostzapper.

Because of the racing surface, the weather for training, and more stretch out opportunities, \"The Good Ones\" are going to be rolling out everyday.

You guys lighten up and have some eggnog, I\'m heading to get my DRF, catch a plane, fly into a foot a snow and wait for \"Santa\" to come to town.

And I\'m not thinking of the one with the reindeer.

Merry Christmas.



Post Edited (12-24-04 09:26)