Travers - Postscript

[TGJB]

Just so we\'re clear, I didn\'t toss him because he was \"phony wide\". I tossed him because at the weights there were several faster (especially the winner) even if you gave him credit for the ground loss, and there was no reason to expect him not to race outside again today.

[miff]

JB, I well know your convictions re ground loss. I do not agree that horses that lose ground have been disadvantaged ALL the time. In his last race Philantropist,rallied wide over a tired bunch and did not finish up in race horse time,IMO,hence my reason for tossing him. Another angle I use often is tossing slow horses from Big Time connections that get overbet on reputation as opposed to being fast.

>Another angle I use often is tossing slow horses from Big Time connections that get overbet on reputation as opposed to being fast.<

That is one of my favorites also.

Another is \"big reputation\" horses when they return off a layoff (especially 2 YOs turning 3 or older horses that may be starting to wear down). Not all of them come back the same, but they often get overbet off their back record for awhile.

[jbelfior]

CH--


I agree.

Class is defined by what a horse like ROSES IN MAY did in this years\'s Whitney.

Perhaps PERFECT DRIFT got a better #, but you cannot quantify when a horse turns it\'s head to look a new challenger in the eye in deep stretch and,despite spending an entire race chasing a torrid pace, refuses to be passed...or a LADY TAK digging down for reserves that nature did not provide for her.

What class is not.....EDDINGTON shying away from BIRDSTONE as that one ranged along side on the far turn. If you don\'t believe me that EDDINGTON was intimidated, ask the jock.


For those of you out there that believe pace and class are less important than pure final time figures, or not important at all, I look forward to continuing to take your hard earned money.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[twoshoes]

Lucy -

That one line may have made the rest of the garbage you\'ve posted here worth it. My compliments - for whatever they are worth.



Post Edited (09-01-04 12:49)

[JJP]

I don\'t know what the numbers say but Roses in May ran TEN times better than Perfect Drift in the Whitney.  It was arguably the best performance by an older horse this year.

>I don\'t know what the numbers say but Roses in May ran TEN times better than Perfect Drift in the Whitney. It was arguably the best performance by an older horse this year.<

Exactly.

No matter how they perform subsequently, there is no doubt who ran better that day no matter what the figures say!

[bdhsheets]

If Roses in May hits the board at 10 panels it\'ll be a miracle. None of Devil His Due off-spring have yet to do it.

Winning a race by a nose, in an ordinary time, does not equate to ten times better than Per Drift nor best effort by an older horse. Get a grip.

[jbelfior]

bdhsheets--

Check out the pace figures in the Whitney and then let me know if RIM ran an ordinary race.

Need a bookie???



Good Luck,
Joe B.

Whether R in M can get 10F is an entirely different issue.

On the day of the race Perfect Drift lost more ground than Roses in May and they finished noses apart. The figures say PD ran a better race.

IMO, with a more reasonable pace and trip scenario Roses in May would have won even if Perfect Drift got a rail trip. If Roses in May had gotten loose he would have drawn off and been eased late. The pace of that race was vicious and RIM battled furiously, put the other horses away (they died badly) and continued gamely when callenged by a solid Grade I horse. It was a spectacular performace.  

I can\'t prove it, but I can\'t prove Wilt Chamberlain was a better basketball player than Willie Shoemaker either.



Post Edited (09-01-04 14:14)

[TGJB]

I\'ve been trying to stay out of this because it\'s pointless-- in this game proof is hard to come by. Evidence is another matter-- and there\'s some evidence Chamberlain was a pretty good ballplayer. Less so for the Shoe.

RIM and PD had similar trips re ground loss-- PD lost a total of 1/2 length. More significantly, he spotted RIM 3 pounds-- worth about a length.

Do I think an extremely hot pace can be a factor? Yes. Do I think other horses might have spit it out after going that fast? Yes-- slower (final time) ones. Of the other 2 in that duel, one was much slower (the Texas horse), the other was Peace Rules, who I was betting to run poorly (interesting how Frankel horses haven\'t done well in G1\'s recently, and how he keeps finding reasons to not run Ghostzapper and others in them). Some of us hit that tri-- publicly-- with a 4 horse box, without factoring in pace.

Do I think a slower pace would have caused RIM to run a faster final time? No. Do I think it would have caused PD to run slower? No.

Can\'t resist. Cary Grant, in The Philadelphia Story: \"Class, my... eye\".

[jbelfior]

TGJB--

I agree that a slower pace may not have caused RIM to run a faster final time, but the ability to handle the internal fractions of a race and still run the same final time is what distinguishes claiming horses from allowance horses from Gr 3\'s to Gr 1\'s.

Do I think Peace Rules or Funny Cide are Gr 1 animals any more....NO. Do I think GHOSTZAPPER is a GR 1 animal at a route of ground....NO. No way he ever runs a 128 Beyer versus PD or RIM. Could MINESHAFT?....yes, he was legitimate GR I.



Good Luck,
joe B.

[TGJB]

If Ghostzapper runs up the track in a grade one next time out, it will be for one of two reasons. Neither will have to do with class.

[JJP]

BDH Sheets-

Ordinary time??? Did you see the fractionals for the Whitney? The horses were gasping for air in the final furlong; :13 and change.  Amazing Perfect Drift could not get by given the pace scenario.  Just shows that in the Whitney, he was vastly inferior to RIM.

[colt]

TGJB wrote - \"If Ghostzapper runs up the track in a grade one next time out, it will be for one of two reasons. Neither will have to do with class.\"...Why don\'t come out and say exactly what\'s on your mind...and stop running around the bushes regarding Bobby F.??...As for RIM, that was an impressive race in the Whitney...sort of reminds me of Southern Image, who is nothing but a fighter...will fight you going 2F or 10F...it does not matter...that is defined as Heart...it has nothing to do with #s or class...it just so happens that horses with that trait on the national scene happens to have solid #s as well....