Where's the outrage???

[TGJB]

BBB-- point me to any post you have made here, ever, that was reponded to in a way that indicated someone took you seriously. Anyone.

Class my ass.

[jbelfior]

Can someone on this board then tell me what the word is to describe/define situations where the \"slower\" Songbird continues to dust the \"faster\" Carina Mia?


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[TGJB]

Can you show me where it said that Carina Mia was \"faster\" than Songbird?

[jbelfior]

Jerry:
It\'s on their respective sheets.

Up until they began their 3 race \"rivalry\" in July of last year in Saratoga, Carina Mia had 3 numbers that were faster than Songbird.



Good Luck,
Joe B.

[TGJB]

Which is a whole different thing. And Arrogate is not one of the fast horses, based on the same thinking.

[mjellish]

IMO Dortmund was toast after running his guts out at 1 1/4 in the KY Derby days after a bout with Colic and THEN coming back 2 weeks later while visually light in flesh and running in Preakness.

Triple Crown sequence ruins many colts before they have a chance to be horses.

[bellsbendboy]

Jb, not going to take the time, yet will stipulate that any such respect is certainly minimal.  With that written, on re-reading my last contribution here, many read it and I confidently stand by its content.  bbb

[Furious Pete]

I don\'t mind your contributions on here BBB, was just curious as to which figure makers if any you were thinking about when writing \"Yet have issue with the further a horse runs the less weight matters as some performance makers suggest\". The standard view is certainly the opposite.

As to the whole \"class\"-debate I don\'t really get the controversy, but it could be that I\'m too young to really know what some oldtimers would mean with that word.

In my world there\'s certainly a degree of \"class\" involved when a horse fire every time (i.e run big numbers every time), I don\'t see why figures and \"class\" should be in opposition? For me there\'s also a degree of \"class differences\" involved when a horse that has the numbers to compete fails to repeat those numbers facing tougher competition, it seems to be the case often enough for it to be a \"thing\". I guess pace is a factor in that. Other dynamics? \"Boys against Men?\".

And I don\'t quite see why it would be wrong to say that a horse like Songbird,  Zenyatta, Black Caviar or Tepin for that matter, \"has/had class\". You ask them to do something difficult and they just do it. That\'s class.

I\'ve made figures for 10 years and is very much a figure guy myself, but that doesn\'t stop me from appreciating that there are intangible elements of horse racing, too.

[bellsbendboy]

Roger that FP.  Five pounds equals one point at All distances seems a dubious assertion to me.  

Zenyatta a good example of performance figures versus class. In my mind, she ranks with the all time greats, yet on figs, many would disagree. bbb

[TGJB]

When it comes to unsupported assertions you are in a class of your own.

[Rich Curtis]

BBB wrote:

\"Five pounds equals one point at All distances seems a dubious assertion to me.\"

You are quite confused, BBB. If you go to the TG Introduction page and read about how the length-value of a point varies according to the distance of the race, it will clear up your confusion--at least about this particular matter.

[Furious Pete]

Nice pun.


Rich Curtis is right though BBB, you have to see that weight rule in relationship to how 1 point equals to two lengths at 10 furlongs and 1 length at 5 furlongs. What you find is that the relationship is completely linear \"point wise\", i.e 1 pound has the same effect on the figure no matter what the distance. From there you could certainly go on and make your point though, that the relationship really shouldn\'t be linear and that there exist some sort of \"cut-off-point\" in distance where the extra pounds has a bigger effect on the performance than what that linear relationship suggest. You would have to tie it up to a theory of some sort though, I guess breeding and to look at what these horses really are evolved to do could be relevant. I think what you would find though is that it would be difficult and even more \"dubious\" to try to get that curve correct, so you are probably better off to just keep it in mind while handicapping, anyway. Horses are individuals, after all.

And of course there are alternative views to it. There\'s also some common sense in the theory that high weight is most troublesome in the acceleration phase of the race, i.e in the start, and that this effect would be stronger the shorter the race is (less time to overturn that effect and more \"need for speed\" early). My guess is that all in all, the \"linear approach\" is probably the best way to go about it, from a figure making perspective.

[ajkreider]

I\'ve always thought that \"class\" was a proxy for good speed figures, from a time when there weren\'t good speed figures.  A horse that places in G1s will be faster than one that places in allowance races, because the former is facing faster company (on average).  

But good speed figures make that kind of analysis mostly irrelevant.  I say \"mostly\" because a horse running back to a typical number in a stakes race validates those numbers (in my mind, at least) to a greater degree than running back to a number in an allowance.

[jbelfior]

How about the ability to handle faster internal race fractions while still achieving (or even improving on) their final number.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[NormandyInvasion]

ajkreider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I\'ve always thought that \"class\" was a proxy for
> good speed figures, from a time when there weren\'t
> good speed figures.  A horse that places in G1s
> will be faster than one that places in allowance
> races, because the former is facing faster company
> (on average).  
>
> But good speed figures make that kind of analysis
> mostly irrelevant.  I say \"mostly\" because a horse
> running back to a typical number in a stakes race
> validates those numbers (in my mind, at least) to
> a greater degree than running back to a number in
> an allowance.

I don\'t think class always equals figures.  As pointed out, Songbird and Zenyatta are good examples.  I believe AP may be another recent one with figures relatively mediocre probably until his last race.  I believe that Timeform uses class in their figures which is why they were basically the lone entity assigning AP the top spot in the totem pole early on.  

Class looks at who you beat or how good the onlooker thinks the horse is regardless of time.  Without times in Europe to a large degree, this is how they ranked horses, the prestige of the race, who they beat, and how they looked doing it.  

That\'s how I look at it.