Sword Dancer: ? for the board

[jbelfior]

Had a heated discussion with someone at the track yesterday while watching all of the replay angles.

Does Money Multiplier beat Flintshire yesterday if he doesn\'t get stopped?

Perhaps my 2-6 tap out ticket is skewing my opinion.

Good Luck,
Joe B

[FrankD.]

Joe,

I\'ll weigh in as we had that very discussion in the back yard yesterday after the race. IMHO they could have gone around 3 more times and MM would never have caught him. We\'ll see who the Euro\'s bring over for the BC but I wouldn\'t bet any other North American turf horse against this one and I said that back in June. A 22.51 last 1/4 going 12 furlongs!

I hope your over stating the TAP OUT exacta? You\'ve been around too long to tap out on a $19 exacta trying to beat a monster!

Good luck,

Frank D.

[jbelfior]

Hi Frank:
If MM doesn\'t get stopped on the turn Flintshire has to catch him.
Thought $19 was a steal in that field.

Despite the rough day at the windows, a great day of racing.

Good Luck,
Joe B.

[FrankD.]

I\'ll agree with you on 2 points, the tough day at the windows and a great day of racing

[Silver Charm]

Guys wasnt MM on the rail around the turn then got off it as Flintshire slipped by simultaneously with the rabbit getting out of the way to let Flintshire through? Coincidence or a set up? I swear it was the latter. Roman Approvals objection seems to confirm this a little....

[APny]

Not sure why more people aren\'t talking about this. Closest thing I\'ve seen to race fixing at a track like Saratoga in a long time.  When Gryder looks over to open up a lane and in turn crushes a foe, how is this not frowned on??? Watched replay several times and MM def gives Flintshire a race if Javier makes move around turn and opens up.

Think the rabbit cost Lady Eli as hot pace set up deep closer who won.

[richiebee]

My personal opinion is that had Gryder stayed on the rail, Javier Castellano could
have yanked on the reins, made a hard right turn to the widest lane, and still run
away from MM and the rest of this overmatched field. Possibly the only way to have
made this race interesting would have been to have Flintshire carry 130 pounds and
those days are gone.

Its a Chad, Chad world and the biggest challenge now is to keep this guy happy until
his throwdown with the Euros at Santa Anita, where Flintshire suffered his only NA
defeat.

As to the use of the rabbit, Juddmonte has done it before, most notably with Bullet
Train, who used to assure an honest pace for the great Frankel.

Hard to call a race \"fixed\" when the favorite, who laid over the field on paper and
during the running, ended up prevailing.

[Topcat]

APny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure why more people aren\'t talking about
> this. Closest thing I\'ve seen to race fixing at a
> track like Saratoga in a long time.  When Gryder
> looks over to open up a lane and in turn crushes a
> foe, how is this not frowned on??? Watched replay
> several times and MM def gives Flintshire a race
> if Javier makes move around turn and opens up.
>

Gryder\'s flat-out herding is well-beyond the pale, and anything but subtle.

Look forward to a set of stewards who should/would call this kind of the
thing the way it should be called, and damn the consequences.

[jbelfior]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My personal opinion is that had Gryder stayed on
> the rail, Javier Castellano could
> have yanked on the reins, made a hard right turn
> to the widest lane, and still run
> away from MM and the rest of this overmatched
> field. Possibly the only way to have
> made this race interesting would have been to have
> Flintshire carry 130 pounds and
> those days are gone.
>
> Its a Chad, Chad world and the biggest challenge
> now is to keep this guy happy until
> his throwdown with the Euros at Santa Anita, where
> Flintshire suffered his only NA
> defeat.
>
> As to the use of the rabbit, Juddmonte has done it
> before, most notably with Bullet
> Train, who used to assure an honest pace for the
> great Frankel.
>
> Hard to call a race \"fixed\" when the favorite, who
> laid over the field on paper and
> during the running, ended up prevailing.

Hi Richie:
Always respect your opinion but anyone who thinks that Flintshire beats MM in a cleanly run race Saturday and if Gryder doesn\'t let him through is spending a few too many nights on the rooftop bar.

Good Luck,
Joe B

[TempletonPeck]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My personal opinion is that had Gryder stayed on
> the rail, Javier Castellano could
> have yanked on the reins, made a hard right turn
> to the widest lane, and still run
> away from MM and the rest of this overmatched
> field. Possibly the only way to have
> made this race interesting would have been to have
> Flintshire carry 130 pounds and
> those days are gone.
>
> Its a Chad, Chad world and the biggest challenge
> now is to keep this guy happy until
> his throwdown with the Euros at Santa Anita, where
> Flintshire suffered his only NA
> defeat.
>
> As to the use of the rabbit, Juddmonte has done it
> before, most notably with Bullet
> Train, who used to assure an honest pace for the
> great Frankel.
>
> Hard to call a race \"fixed\" when the favorite, who
> laid over the field on paper and
> during the running, ended up prevailing.

Flintshire may have been able to make that right turn and still run away, To me, the point is that he should\'ve had to.

I think running a rabbit is not very sporting, but what Gryder did goes beyond that. He intentionally ruined the chances of another horse, and simultaneously made it much more likely that a horse of his choosing would win - and no amount of handicapping could have resulted in a prediction he\'d behave that way. I see no meaningful difference between what he did and any other kind of race fixing.

[moosepalm]

richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My personal opinion is that had Gryder stayed on
> the rail, Javier Castellano could
> have yanked on the reins, made a hard right turn
> to the widest lane, and still run
> away from MM and the rest of this overmatched
> field. Possibly the only way to have
> made this race interesting would have been to have
> Flintshire carry 130 pounds and
> those days are gone.
>
> Its a Chad, Chad world and the biggest challenge
> now is to keep this guy happy until
> his throwdown with the Euros at Santa Anita, where
> Flintshire suffered his only NA
> defeat.
>
> As to the use of the rabbit, Juddmonte has done it
> before, most notably with Bullet
> Train, who used to assure an honest pace for the
> great Frankel.
>
> Hard to call a race \"fixed\" when the favorite, who
> laid over the field on paper and
> during the running, ended up prevailing.

Predictive outcomes shouldn\'t determine the legality of questionable tactics.  Within seconds of the conclusion of the race, I heard from respected observers on two coasts asking, \"Did you see that?\"  We worry about all sorts of flaws and foibles that negatively affect the perception of the sport, so why is it not reasonable to question this?  The poor saps who foolishly wagered on Gryder\'s horse still deserved his best effort to win, and perhaps they got it, but it would be comforting to know that some form of authority is at least posting a belated inquiry, even if behind closed doors.

[jimbo66]

Joe B,

I guess I spent those nights on the rooftop bar with Richie B as well.  MM never beats Flintshire that day or any other day.

Another possible viewpoint?

That the figures aren\'t representing the significant advantage Flintshire has on every other North American turf horse.  He looked like a toss two back on TG and looked vulnerable Saturday.  He won two back only running about 100 yards and beating a number of horses who looked \"as fast\".

Jim

[TGJB]

That last is no small point. If a horse is not running to win, at the very least he shouldn\'t be a separate betting interest. This came up in last year\'s Diana, when the rabbit almost won. We shouldn\'t have to guess.

[TheBull]

Moose,

It\'s not just the \"poor saps\" who bet on Gryder\'s horse and deserved a fairly run race. Anyone who bet ANY OTHER horse than Flintshire deserved the same. I did not bet the race, but personally, if I bet ANYONE other than Flint, I\'d have been pissed.

[moosepalm]

TheBull Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moose,
>
> It\'s not just the \"poor saps\" who bet on Gryder\'s
> horse and deserved a fairly run race. Anyone who
> bet ANY OTHER horse than Flintshire deserved the
> same. I did not bet the race, but personally, if I
> bet ANYONE other than Flint, I\'d have been pissed.

True, Bull.  I should have prefaced it by saying, \"at the very least\"...., but yes, it obviously affected others.  My only skin in the race was the obvious single on Flintshire in horizontals, which went for naught, anyway.