No Such Thing As Bad Publicity?

[JimP]

Chuckles wrote: \"Did Pete Rose do anything at anytime that was anything short of attempting to win?\"

The answer is that no one other than Pete Rose himself knows the true answer to that question. What we do know is that broke the anti-gambling rule that every participant in the game is well aware of and he did it knowing the penalty. We also know that in doing so he put himself in the position of having great incentive to do something short of trying to win. (Don\'t give me the \"he only bet on his team to win\" line. We all know about \"darkening form\" to improve the odds.) So his motives can not be trusted. And he has admitted that his words can not be trusted.

He did the crime and now he must do the time. And the time is life. Keep him out of the game and out of the Hall of Fame.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Never underestimate the clever minds of dedicated horseplayers. I never contemplated \"darkening form\" to bet upon baseball matchups. You\'re apparently saying \"making the Reds look bad for the chance to bet upon them another day when he managed with greater zeal?\" I suppose with a person of horrible character anything is possible, but I don\'t think Pete Rose is that type of person. I think he\'s very much like many here. I think he likes to gamble some. Realistically, I don\'t think a manager can darken the form of pitchers and hitters unless they are in on the bet also. There is no allegation that Pete Rose fixed games or managed with less than an all out effort to win. If there was a scintilla of that kind of evidence I\'m assured we would have heard of it.

Pete Rose bet on baseball in a era when betting on baseball is legal, although at the time he did bet with a bookie is my understanding. He bet on his team to win and he broke Judge Landis\'s rule. But baseball is filled with illegality and other rule breakers and those players are allowed to play the game. If Pete Rose had fixed a game I would fully understand his lifetime exclusion, but that is not the case. Without fixing games all Pete Rose did was break a rule. He broke a rule like so many of the steroid users break rules.

He should have known better. It was an extraordinary lapse of judgement, not unlike the lapse of judgement that others in baseball have made and been forgiven for in the recent past. This isn\'t a Black Sox scandal. Its about one man that bet on his team to win. Judge him upon that.

CtC

[JimP]

A manager can influence a baseball game in many ways. One key way is in deciding when to play and when to rest certain players. It\'s not difficult to conjecture that a manager with a bet on a game might be more apt to not rest any of his key players that day. And he might be more apt to use his closer, maybe even bring him in in the 8th instead of the 9th. Maybe use him for the 3rd day in a row when normally he would not. On the other hand if a manager didn\'t have a bet on a game he might be more apt to pick that day to pull some of his regulars, not use his closer, etc. The existence of the bet is just too likely to exert some influence on the manager and that effects the integrity of the game. Even if the manager only bets on his own team. MLB is wise to have their anti-gambling rule and to have the lifetime ban as the penalty. It should be one strike and you\'re out ont his one.

[HP]

Here\'s a guy who made millions dressing up in pajamas and chasing a ball around. They told him, \"here\'s your uniform Pete, and by the way don\'t bet on baseball.\" He COULDN\'T DO IT!

What difference does it make if he bet on his own team, or if it influenced anything or his managerial decision or whatever? The rule doesn\'t say, \"you can bet on your own team to win\" does it?

In the real world, you get fired, you live in a box on the street, and then you die. No book, no nothing. I don\'t see any reason why Pete Rose deserves a better deal than Mr. Fired-And-Lives-In-A-Box because he played until he was 100 to break Cobb\'s record, moving on to a tough life of signing his name and blowing his money at the track. He accepted the ban. He\'s didn\'t apologize or admit because he\'s not \"built that way.\" Good riddance and case closed.

Pete Rose had to bet on BASEBALL. There weren\'t enough other things for him to bet on! He will be joined in the Idiot Hall of Fame shortly by Jayson Williams, ex-Net, a guy who couldn\'t handle his non-job of having $80 million, living in a mansion and getting drunk with his friends without SHOOTING someone. I can\'t wait to read HIS book!

The fans are running from Rose according to every poll I\'ve seen of late, so maybe there\'s hope for America after all, Chuckles\' letter notwithstanding.

And no Jerry, the bug up my ass WILL NOT DIE. If drinking could kill it, it would have been dead a long time ago.

HP

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

First of all, Ty Cobb played as long as Methusala to set the record Pete Rose broke. The same number of seasons. Cobb missed his share of ballgames in his 24 year career. Granted the season was 8 games shorter.

I don\'t think the pitching of 1880-1930 was near the quality of today\'s pitching. Look at baseball history and the number of ancient era 40 and yes 50 game winners. Ty Cobb certainly had nice stats in his era, so did Favorite Trick in his.

As far as the Hall goes, Cobb was a notoriously poor sport and of poor character. He sharpened his spikes to maim opponents, he went into the stands and beat up a fan, he beat up a cigarette girl. He drank and beat his wife. In 1919 there was a gambling allegation against him as well, although it was ultimately dropped. Had America come to it\'s senses when Ty Cobb was inducted into the Hall of Fame?

Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were both barred by baseball at one time as well.
Its not about good then and bad now. Its not about a fall from grace. Its about the evolution of society. Its neither good nor bad. Its just different. In 1919 it was acceptable for a man to strike his wife and unacceptable to gamble. Today even government has its hands in gambling and it acceptable to gamble and unacceptable to strike your wife. I think we have evolved enough to give Pete Rose the chance that we give so many others. He\'s served his time.

Keep in mind the gambling incident was subsequent to his playing career and he bet on his team to win.

CtC

[HP]

Last four seasons played

Cobb - 24 seasons, started at age 19
525 hits
averages - .378, .339, .357 and .323

Rose - 25 seasons, started at age 21
266 hits
.365 (29 games), .259, .264 and .219

Rose broke the record by stinking up the joint. Anyone who saw him play in those years knows he STANK beyond belief! You can say Pete Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame based on his playing career, but in my opinion it has little to do with him breaking Ty Cobb\'s record and more to do with the great 15 year stretch he had before the awful last \"record breaking\" years.

HP

[JimP]

Sure Pete Rose belongs in the HOF based on his career as a player. Just as much as Ty Cobb belongs. BUT Pete Rose disqualified himself by breaking the cardinal rule of baseball. He bet on a baseball game while an active participant. And he did it as both a player and as a manager. So far, he has only admitted to the latter. And he did it illegally. He MAY have only bet on his own team. But then again maybe that\'s only the part to which has admitted so far. Maybe we\'ll eventually learn that he bet against his team as well. But whether he did or he didn\'t is ultimately not relevant. He broke the cardinal rule of baseball. He\'e out of baseball and the HOF as a result. MLB should keep it that way.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Theres absolutely no allegation that Pete Rose bet on his team as a player or that he bet against them. The facts  are that he bet on his team to win as a manager and Dodd and Giamatti (sic?)had some stubs in his handwriting to confirm those wagers. They involved the Reds to win. Why does everyone want to make a monster of Pete Rose?

[bdhsheets]

Chuckles, you\'ve lost your mind. Allowing Rose to manage again? You\'re kidding, right? Geeeze.

1. First and foremost, Rose is a welcher. If he had paid his marks, like a good citizen, no one is the wiser [just like Jordan] Instead we know he\'a a big jagoff.

2. What a perfect cover for a player/gambler: \"Charlie Hustle\". How much of the hustle or O-fers because he laid the wood on the Reds to win/lose? We\'ll never know, now will we? I choose to believe he did and nothing that lying SOB says will ever convince me otherwise.

3. Rose says he never inquired about the health of pitchers, players with his connections in the managerial ranks. More bullcrap.

Hal McCoy, longtime sportswriter for Dayton Daily News, in an interview on a Chgo sports talker, revealed how he was in Rose\'s office when he was talking to Sparky inquiring about a pitcher going for the Tigers that day and jotting down notes in his infamous \"red book\".with Rose saying \"he liked to stay on top of things\" with a smile. Hal didn\'t think much about it back then, but now we know.

\"Charlie ME, ME, ME\" intentionally ruined Molitor and Eckersley\'s big day. Hopefully, that day will never come his way.

[bdhsheets]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8661-2004Jan11.html

If the article is true, Rose is a bigger moron than we know.

[HP]

Amazing article.  Thanks for posting it.  Keep him OUT!  HP

[JimP]

Chuckles: Where have you been? Of course there are numerous allegations that Pete Rose was betting on baseball while he was a player. He just hasn\'t admitted that part yet. But why does it matter? He has confessed to betting while he was a manager. That is all we need to know.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Bdsheets, all that story link does is confirm that MLB didn\'t view Pete\'s rule breaking as deserving of lifetime banishment in this age. It proves my point. Although I would point out it comes from the mouth of John Dowd and theres plenty of dirty air surrounding him so I take some of it with a grain of salt. If the offer made was actually as presented I think Pete made a mistake not accepting it. But what if the league wanted him to give up his equine interests in this deal? Did you know he owned horses? If he didn\'t fix any games why should he grovel before the commissioner and renounce his horse interests?

As far as intentionally ruining Molitor and Eckersly\'s big day, you don\'t seriously mean he planned to detract from it do you? I couldn\'t believe that story when I first read it. All it indicates is the rabid nature of Rose\'s detractors. They\'ll latch onto anything they can to throw more mud upon him. I almost think he\'s a democratic presidential candidate...lol. But lets be real. Paul Molitor and Dennis Ecekersly are mere historical footnotes to what Rose accomplished. They really don\'t matter. He\'s served his time.

CtC