miff: Rags not credible imo, have not yet seen them. They have Dortmund\'s last a substantial backwards move....a joke.

boston: Plenty of these fast on off tracks.

mjellish: I get it.  Holy Bull was a very fast race and Bluegrass wasn\'t.  But it wasn\'t as slow as Beyer has it.  No way, even aside from the weight
and ground loss.

mjellish: How much do they have Dort going back?

Wonder what JB will have him at.

If rags has him going back substantially most of their users will be off Dort as their take will be he hasn\'t moved forward when he should have, unless he had a substantial move forward in San Felipe and the read is he got the bounce out of the way.

In any case, he\'s probably tough to use at his likely odds no matter which data you use.

johnnym: How do you adjust for losing a shoe at the start?

joemama: Get another blacksmith? -)

covelj70: Good stuff Silver. Thanks

Btw, Upstaet isn\'t faster than Materiality. They are same.

Both super fast. Upstart done it twice but Materiality hasn\'t reacted to a number yet.

johnnym: Good Point

miff: \"How much do they have Dort going back\"

MJ,

Rags had Dortmund 5.25 then 5 then 7.25 in the SA Derby

Also,have not seen all the Rags figs yet but unimaginable that they have Carpe Diem second fastest going in.

Mike

pizzalove: Jock moved on Normandy too early in the derby.  The added distance was within his range it was just a poor ride.  Need patience.

joemama: Anyone rally think Normandy had a chance of beating ORB that day ,early move or not?

TGJB: Mike-- it\'s unlikely, but with their figures there is no such thing as unimaginable. Literally.

miff: Yea, if he X\'s the Kool Aid drinkers will say, \"see he was going backwards\".

TGJB: Jim, seriously, 5:00 A.M.

covelj70: You know I get very excited come derby time. I won\'t sleep well between now and derby day.