I'll Have Another treatments prior to Belmont

[kekomi]

i wasn\'t going to get involved in this discussion, primarily because of the overwhelming dunning-kruger effect on display all over the web in relation to this, but there are three assertions i see from all of the apologists that are flatly incorrect, and that when coming from those claiming vet or medical knowledge can\'t even be simply labeled as incorrect or ignorance, but must be labeled as outright lies.

the first is that apologists keep referring to NSAID and anti-inflammatory medications given to IHA and other horses as \"preventative.\"

No one with any medical knowledge (whether vet or MD or nurse or well versed layman) would refer to this as preventative medicine; it isn\'t, it\'s palliative medicine.

giving a horse or a human or a hamster a pain reliever of any kind, does not prevent or cure any medical condition--all it does is make the recipient more comfortable. classic example--i can amputate your leg with or with out anesthesia, the anesthesia doesn\'t effect the outcome of the surgery (except to make it even more likely that you will die). the only reason i give it to you is to save you from the pain of the amputation. the same is true of taking an asprin for a headache.

when pain is caused by inflammation, as with arthritis, anti-inflammatories temporarily reduce the inflamation there by temporarily relieving the pain--they do not prevent future inflamation or cure the underlying condition creating the inflammation--and in fact, by allowing continued use of the degraded joint, they actually worsen the underlying condition over time.

when a race horse is given anti-inflammatories, it is only so that a horse that otherwise would run poorly or not be able to run at all due to pain, will run better. the only thing being \"prevented\" is a sure loss. the meds are given so that a horse that would not be able to train and compete, can continue training and competing, full well knowing that every workout and every race is one closer to retirement or breakdown.

this brings me to my second issue--NSAIDS are not benign. in both humans and horse, NSAIDS destroy the lining of the stomach and the intestines.  they are the number one cause of colic in horses. what\'s worse, in horses it has been shown that while the horse is on the NSAIDS their linings will not heal, eventually the lining will be eaten through and the the contents will leak out and the horse will die a very painful death from septicemia.

this effect is worsened dramatically by dehydration--a state that race horses are kept in almost permanently though lasix and water pulling.  NSAID use in horses also leads to liver and kidney failure (this also happens in humans--tylenol will destroy your liver, no if ands or buts about it, and aleve will destroy your gut no if ands or buts about it).

pain is the body\'s way of making you stop--when you ignore or drown out the pain so you can continue, you cause permanent damage.

this brings me to my third issue--just because something is legal, allowed, and or common/widespread, doesn\'t make it harmless or ethical.

the apologists keep saying, \"who doesn\'t have a little arthritis,\' \"this is all within the rules,\" \"every horse on the track is getting this treatment.\"

IHA isn\'t a human athlete choosing to do what he does, he and all the other horses on the track are no better than slaves, conscripted to this life whether they like it or not. that means we owe them a higher duty of care than any human athlete owes himself--if lance armstrong wants to poison himself in order to win and compete, that\'s his choice, and he has no one to blame but himself if he can\'t sleep lying down because all the epo he has taken has turned his blood to sludge, and will cause him die of a heart attack if he tries to.

the truth is IHA probably developed OC (osteochondrosis) as a two year old while being prepped for sale and for the track--a major cause of OC is forcing 2 year olds to run too fast around turns over hard ground before they are ready. not all races horse get this and it is completely preventable through better training (which takes longer, costs more, and isn\'t as economical)--but hey, everyone does it, right?.

OC leads to full blown osteoarthritis in young horses--osteoarthritis is not a normal condition of young animals of any species--to hear fat ass 50 and 60 year old men to say \"hey, who doesn\'t have a little arthritis? what\'s the big deal?\" is infuriating.

the thing i really don\'t get is that punters should be furious at the IHA report, not defending the industry, and not because of what it says about o\'neil or reddam or IHA, but for what it shows you don\'t know, and that is kept hidden from you--you bet on these horses, and if this was the stock exchange, everything would have to be disclosed. this report just confirms that punters are being played for fools, and yet, from what i can tell--the fools seem more than happy to say \"how dare you impune drug o\'neil!\" and then bend over with a smile to make it even easier for them to stick it up your wazoo.


you want to know the truth about IHA--here it is--had IHA run in europe he wouldn\'t\' have been able win anything. had IHA had to run clean, with nothing in his system, he would have been retired in january. that\'s pretty freaking performance enhancing to me.

[sighthound]

i wasn\'t going to get involved in this discussion, primarily because of the overwhelming dunning-kruger effect on display all over the web in relation to this, but there are three assertions i see from all of the apologists that are flatly incorrect, and that when coming from those claiming vet or medical knowledge can\'t even be simply labeled as incorrect or ignorance, but must be labeled as outright lies.

After this, I didn\'t want to keep reading but I did ...

the first is that apologists keep referring to NSAID and anti-inflammatory medications given to IHA and other horses as \"preventative.

No one with any medical knowledge (whether vet or MD or nurse or well versed layman) would refer to this as preventative medicine; it isn\'t, it\'s palliative medicine.

I\'m a veterinarian, and you are simply wrong.  I suggest you go learn about the inflammatory cascade and how to interrupt it.  Here\'s a handy little chart about inflammation that proves you completely wrong.  If you would like to discuss specific detail, go ahead:  http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/images/trauma2.gif

I didn\'t bother reading the rest of your crap.

Edit:  Damn.  I did go ahead and read the rest of your crap.  

This sentence that you wrote:

\" ... this effect is worsened dramatically by dehydration--a state that race horses are kept in almost permanently though lasix and water pulling.\"

 ... shows you are so completely factually ignorant of basic race horse daily husbandry, and what you are talking about, that I would delete your entire post if I were you, out of sheer embarrassment.

[TGJB]

Pretty sure my play here is to watch the fireworks as you and Sight go at it, but two comments. First, I had the to look up the Dunning--Kruger thing. For the uninformed, it\'s what you run into in bars all the time, on every subject. Second, I\'m gonna be really hurt if I\'m the \"fat-assed\" guy you\'re referring to.

[miff]

\"the apologists keep saying, \"who doesn\'t have a little arthritis,\' \"this is all within the rules,\" \"every horse on the track is getting this treatment.\"


Genius,

Without vets/medication there is no racing, period!

Mike

[sighthound]

I think Kekomi has chosen to demonstrate Dunning-Kruger for us, in exemplary action.

Go water your horses, TGJB - they are dehydrated.

[Rick B.]

TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, I had the to look up the Dunning--Kruger
> thing. For the uninformed, it\'s what you run into
> in bars all the time, on every subject.

If those guys didn\'t get their inspiration from Cliff Clavin,
I\'ll eat my DRF.

[miff]

Seems the Clean Up The Game/The Sky Is Falling loons may not ruin the game after all.Some good changes, without Federal Intervention, best hope.The then comments from Sen.Mathias compelling in that he speaks of \"unfair to bettors\" words you will rarely(if ever) hear from the disingenuous phonies on the podium today.



U.S. Senate hearing: We\'ve been here before
by Ray Paulick

If Yogi Berra, the New York Yankees Hall of Famer, were in attendance at this afternoon's United States Senate hearing of the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation (entitled Medication and Performance Enhancing Drugs in Horseracing), he might say it was déjà vu all over again.  

The date was May 26, 1982, and then it was the Senate's Judiciary Committee talking about the Corrupt Horse Racing Practices Act, a bill sponsored by Arkansas Sen. David Pryor. The meeting was chaired by Maryland's Charles \"Mac\" Mathias, who a year earlier said he had cautioned "the racing community that there was a small, dark cloud on the horizon, the possibility of federal legislation dealing with the problem of horse drugging."

Sen. Mathias said: "Drug abuse on some racetracks persists and the practice of numbing or masking injuries or soreness is still with us...it is unfair to the horses and unfair to the bettors, since the records of past performances are worthless without an accompanying record of medication. ... We want to find out if the states have a real interest in eliminating race-day drugs."

Sen. Pryor proclaimed "no other major racing country in the world today allows the prerace medication of horses – only in America." He cited a survey of Blood-Horse magazine readers saying more than two-thirds of owners and breeders opposed raceday medication of horses.

The Corrupt Horse Racing Practices Act, written in the wake of highly publicized articles in Sports Illustrated detailing race-fixing involving drugging of horses, would 1) require pre-race testing of horses; 2) ban all race-day drugs, including phenylbutazone and Lasix; and 3) prohibit the icing, numbing or freezing of horses prior to a race.

"Most important objective of the legislation we are considering today," said Sen. Pryor said, "is to turn the current state medication rules and regulations into one single, enforceable, uniform standard."

Sound familiar?

That bill died, just as the Interstate Horseracing Improvement Act of 2011 is likely to die later this year. The current bill is co-sponsored by Sen. Tom Udall of New Mexico, who may be the only senator who actually shows up to question the witnesses invited to testify (believe it or not, some witnesses who testified in 1982 will be back to testify in 2012). There are 25 members of the Commerce Committee and as late as Wednesday afternoon, sources told the Paulick Report not one of the other members had expressed an intention to attend.

So with such anticipated apathy from the U.S. Senate in an election year, why go forward with this hearing (click here to see who will be testifying)?

Simply stated, the legislation will not go forward this year without virtually unanimous support from all 100 U.S. senators, and that isn't likely to happen.

Perhaps it is a matter of setting the stage for new legislation in 2013, when a new Congress is sworn in. The current legislation before the House and Senate is too onerous, too vague, and simply won't work. Another attempt in 2013, this time with the cooperation of some powerful industry groups, might have a better chance of succeeding. For example, there has been talk of simply changing the language of the Interstate Horseracing Act that facilitates interstate simulcasting. A change in the approval for simulcasting, from "representative horsemen's organization" at the host racetrack to a national organization such as The Jockey Club or Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association, could accomplish the same goal as the current legislation.

For those who are interested in seeing the transcripts from the 1982 Corrupt Horse Racing Practices Act Senate hearing, click here.

I'm sure there will be more than a few similarities

[Footlick]

Ok.  So here is my question.  If it is healthier for the horse to run on Lasix and Bute, does that mean that the European horse is less healthy than the American horse?  It doesn\'t seem that way to me, but the way many on this site talk, it must be.  What is it about American racing that makes it so much more stressful for the horse than the racing in the countries that do not allow raceway meds?  Why do they not feel that it would be healthier for their horses to run on meds?  I\'m not trying to be a smart-ass, but I\'m trying to understand why it is only a necessity here.  It can\'t be the breeding, per se, because American breeds run all over the world without raceway meds.  So it can be done, but the prevalent attitude seems to be that it can\'t be done here.  Is there anyone that has experience with American racing and European racing who could comment on this?  Thanks.

[TGJB]

Miff-- let\'s get something straight. No reasonable person looking at what is happening in this game-- field size and handle down, tracks struggling to survive,the rise of supertrainers and supervets-- could possibly conclude the sky is NOT falling. And there is no chance the industry is going to clean up its own act without Federal intervention or the credible threat of it, for all the same reasons it did not in 1982. The current bill is flawed, Gagliano pointed out some of the ways at the hearing. But what has to happen is to make that bill right, along the lines (for the most part) the JC has recommended. It is our last best chance. Without that the industry will go from to decline to freefall over the next decade. (Which will be aided by continued pounding in the press, some of it earned).

[miff]

JB,

Show material proof that the sky is falling more in racing today more than 10-15 years ago, economy to economy.Percption wise correct, factually no.Tracks going broke has zero to do with lasix, meds etc.Field size goes to reduced crop sizes, an economic issue which only improves with economic conditions.

Game mature, younger generation disinterested, not replacing those leaving the windows.Make all the chhanges you want, handle will be about what it is, no less than 10 top consulting firms concluded that 5 years ago when NYC OTB was for sale.

Lots of negative hyperbole,little facts presented and much of it discredited.Games numbers VERY much in line with present economy and the proliferation of other forms of gambling last 10-15 years.

Who are the super trainers and super vets?Please no nonsense about class 3/4 pico positives and rumor bullshit(The White Mercedes!!)

I don\'t know anything about that. Facts only please,no unscientific numbers on a piece of paper as \"proof\"


Mike

[TGJB]

Seriously, wake up. The game was going in the crapper long before the economy did. There are a million reasons, nobody said it\'s all drugs (read the McKinsey report). But saying there\'s not a drug problem because there are no positives is laughable. There is a drug problem BECAUSE there are no positives.

As far as the non-scientific figures on paper thing, get someone to explain to you the statistical chance of me (or anyone else) getting lots of figures wrong, all in the same direction, for just certain trainers, by a lot.

Beyond all that, I KNOW what I\'m talking about. I\'m not just relying on my own analysis. The vet in question walked into a room of racing bigwigs (JC committee), was told anything he said would be treated as Grand Jury testimony with no repercussions, and spilled his guts. They used what I told them as a road map and HE ADMITTED EVERYTHING I TOLD THEM WAS TRUE. Was proud of it. EPO use for years, who he did it for, the whole thing.

And that\'s just one story. Wake up.

[miff]

JB,

The game is fairly easily \"repaired\" if the conspiratorily minded shut up and the factual problems are dealt with by professionals with problem solving skills and authority.

Having said that, regardless of what \"they\" do, racing has no upside in the long term and at best may be sustainable near its current level for some time.

Mike

[FrankD.]

Mike,

The sky is falling. What professionals are you referring to? You have coined the
\" clueless clowns\" phrase and it has been well earned across the board by those who have run the game into the ground.

You know how passionate I am about this game.I am a point in my life where I thought I would be retiring and doing nothing but playing seriously again daily, traveling the country to different tracks and handicapping contests. I have no interest to do such and no such inclination to try and beat take outs, 6 horse fields, juice trainers and bet on slow rats.

In my hometown of Schenectady, NY we had 5 capital OTB parlors fully staffed and open until 8:00 at night not so long ago; 2 of them were open until the last trotter ran wherever at 11:30 or later. Now there are 2 facilities with one closing at 5:30 PM and a couple of bowling alleys with EZ bets. The Albany Tele-Theater was a boom for more than 20 years; they built a new one 1/3 of the size and it\'s a ghost town except for big race days. At 53 years old I\'m usually one of the youngest around when I venture into any of these places.

The game is in a complete free fall and we are venturing into the top meet in the country by far and it\'s very far from inspiring to say the least.It\'s been a 30 year free fall of greed from breeders, idiotic decisions by those who run the game,too many tracks, too many dates, too many cheap slow rats and dependency on state governments and now slots. They have reaped what they have sewn and it\'s almost a forgone conclusion that slot money will be redistributed throughout state governments.

The politicians are making their grand stand plays and could care one way or the other for sure. Look at this from a business perspective does the current Saratoga condition book warrant 970,000 a day in purse distribution?

A thoroughly disgusted Frank D. who will still venture to the Spa for 25-30 days of this meet; old habits are hard to break.

Frank D.

[kekomi]

so your a vet, huh?--do you deny that NSAID use is palliative and not preventative medicine? Do you deny that NSAIDS erode the mucosal lining of the stomach and the intestines--which eventually leads to leakage and peritonitis, which leads to toxemia and septicemia? Do you deny that dehydration increases the likelihood and speed of erosion of the mucosal lining? do you deny that while on NSAIDS horses are not able to heal their mucosal lining? do you deny that lasix induces dehydration? do you deny that stacking makes the likelihood of adverse NSAID outcomes more likely? are you trying to claim that osteoarthritis is curable? finally, what point where you trying to make with the picture of enzymatic cartilage degradation, what the hell did it have to do with my points-- and most importantly, did you even understand what it illustrates?



ps: i often find that people who dispute others not with fact and reasonable debate, but with insults usually are the ones who know the least or are liars--i also tend find that those who take personal something that has nothing to do with them and was not directed at them, tends indicate a guilty conscience. you don\'t talk like a vet, you talk like an a$$.


here\'s just a quick google search to support for my \"crap:\"

\"The principles of treatment of equine osteoarthritis is similar to those of humans--treat the pain and dysfunction palliatively as long as possible. The definitive treatments in man are joint replacement or joint fusion. In the horse, the only definitive treatment available is joint fusion (arthrodesis).\"  http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/tjd.htm

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/51800.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=2iEkI4YKoHgC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=nsaid+side+effects+in+racehorses+dehydration&source=bl&ots=my_O9ptIK7&sig=2LCUyxzHw1FCwUlEMSyRyZ-TeuY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HUwDUM2MH4Ts2AWA9cWbCw&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=nsaid%20side%20effects%20in%20racehorses%20dehydration&f=false


http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/559/55919726003.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2885.1986.tb00008.x/abstract

http://www.aaep.org/images/files/EffectCOX1inhibitorandCOX1sparingdrugsequinerightdorsal.pdf

http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/documents/release_NSAID_research.pdf

http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsmeds/nsaidandyourhorseweb.pdf

http://www.azequine.com/nsaid.pdf

http://equimed.com/drugs-and-medications/reference/furosemide

http://www.eaglefernequine.com/pdf/Newsletter%20Jan%202011.pdf

http://www.2f-stemcells.de/downloads/Barakat_%20Old_Horse_Arthritis.pdf

http://www.williamvandry.com/2012/05/09/professor-william-vandrys-view-may-2012-2/




sighthound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i wasn\'t going to get involved in this discussion,
> primarily because of the overwhelming
> dunning-kruger effect on display all over the web
> in relation to this, but there are three
> assertions i see from all of the apologists that
> are flatly incorrect, and that when coming from
> those claiming vet or medical knowledge can\'t even
> be simply labeled as incorrect or ignorance, but
> must be labeled as outright lies.
>
> After this, I didn\'t want to keep reading but I
> did ...
>
> the first is that apologists keep referring to
> NSAID and anti-inflammatory medications given to
> IHA and other horses as \"preventative.
>
> No one with any medical knowledge (whether vet or
> MD or nurse or well versed layman) would refer to
> this as preventative medicine; it isn\'t, it\'s
> palliative medicine.  
>
> I\'m a veterinarian, and you are simply wrong.  I
> suggest you go learn about the inflammatory
> cascade and how to interrupt it.  Here\'s a handy
> little chart about inflammation that proves you
> completely wrong.  If you would like to discuss
> specific detail, go ahead:
> http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/images/trauma
> 2.gif
>
> I didn\'t bother reading the rest of your crap.
>
> Edit:  Damn.  I did go ahead and read the rest of
> your crap.  
>
> This sentence that you wrote:
>
> \" ... this effect is worsened dramatically by
> dehydration--a state that race horses are kept in
> almost permanently though lasix and water
> pulling.\"
>
>  ... shows you are so completely factually
> ignorant of basic race horse daily husbandry, and
> what you are talking about, that I would delete
> your entire post if I were you, out of sheer
> embarrassment.

[kekomi]

not you! i actually didn\'t read any posts in this thread and was referring to the industry spokespeople that have been trotted out by bloodhorse et al.