When does substance trump style?

[jimbo66]

Just wondering what some of our \"west coast regulars\" think of Trevor Denman?

The guy has a great voice and all, but it seems he continues to have major mistakes when calling races.  He of course had the Breeder\'s  Cup debacle a few years back where he screwed up several races, but even though I don\'t watch a ton of California races, he just seems to be getting worse.

In today\'s last at Delmar, a horse seemed to break down (#12?), the jockey was thrown, he collided into two other horses, with one other jockey possibly being thrown, and Denman missed the entire incident in his call.  I don\'t know how that is even possible.

Vic Stauffer may not have the elegant pipes of Denman, but his calls are \"on target\" from a substance perspective, if you ask me, especially relative to Denman.

Sorry for the \"non-handicapping\" post, but with Denman starting to remind me of Mike Battaglia, I needed an outlet for the comment......

[P-Dub]

jimbo66 Wrote:
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> Just wondering what some of our \"west coast
> regulars\" think of Trevor Denman?
>
> The guy has a great voice and all, but it seems he
> continues to have major mistakes when calling
> races.  He of course had the Breeder\'s  Cup
> debacle a few years back where he screwed up
> several races, but even though I don\'t watch a ton
> of California races, he just seems to be getting
> worse.
>
> In today\'s last at Delmar, a horse seemed to break
> down (#12?), the jockey was thrown, he collided
> into two other horses, with one other jockey
> possibly being thrown, and Denman missed the
> entire incident in his call.  I don\'t know how
> that is even possible.
>
> Vic Stauffer may not have the elegant pipes of
> Denman, but his calls are \"on target\" from a
> substance perspective, if you ask me, especially
> relative to Denman.
>
> Sorry for the \"non-handicapping\" post, but with
> Denman starting to remind me of Mike Battaglia, I
> needed an outlet for the comment......


Jimbo,

If you are getting back at me for referring to you as JB\'s boy, you couldn\'t have done a better job than to compare Denman to Battaglia.  You say that he has \"a great voice\", which immediately disqualifies Trevor from being compared to Battaglia. Hands down, Battaglia is the worst track announcer alive.......and perhaps the worst of all time.

Not a fan of Mr. Battaglia.

Denman has certainly lost a step.  IMO, Denman along with Durkin are 2 of the best announcers of all time. They have been so good for so long, that when they slip it  is noticeable.  Yes, Denman has had some issues with some BC races, that cannot be disputed. However, his day to day calls are still very good.

He\'s like the guy who hits .330 year after year. Then he hits around .310, finally dropping down to .290.  Not as great as he was in his prime, but hitting .290 is still pretty good.  You\'re just used to him hitting .330 year after year.    

I think that, generally speaking, mistakes are noticed more than good calls.  I still enjoy his race calls, they are usually very accurate, contain a nice mix of excitement and he still can see which horses are making a move into contention.

As for the last race today, the only thing I can think of would be this: He calls the entire field from first to last.  After calling the last horse, he swings his binoculars back to the front of the pack, and perhaps missed the #12 (who was around 5/6th) as the filly broke down and backed up. I\'m not excusing this, as he certainly should have seen it and put it in his race call.  I\'m just speculating as to why he may have missed it. It was indeed inexcusable.

I\'ve posted several times that I am a fan of Stauffer. I think we had a bit of fun on the forum last year when he practically lost his voice as Zenyatta ran down Switch. He mixes enthusiasm, accuracy, and anticipation into his race calls and I enjoy his work immensely.

Being a Bay Area guy, my race track trips are usually Santa Anita and Del Mar.  I\'ve never had the chance to visit Saratoga, as many of you get to do several times a meet. One day I\'ll make it out there.  Best of luck to you and everyone else making it out to The Spa this summer.  Sounds like a great time.

[alm]

Denman is the public relations voice for SoCal racing.  Period.  He missed a spill?  Probably gave it a lot of thought before he decided it would be bad PR.  Cheering for Zenyatta during a race, not just calling her dramatic finishes, put him into the PR category, IMO.

[Dana666]

Generally speaking, I dislike announcers that editorialize, and I also prefer quieter, more relaxed sorts. There is a guy in Ireland who calls most of the major Irish races who I really prefer above anyone else--his name escapes me at the moment. I like calm and clear and accurate. Trevor\'s an institution at this point, so he\'s not going anywhere until he\'s ready to retire. He\'s earned that but I agree with your post as far as his accuracy. Vic Stauffer is sometimes amusing I will admit. Tom Durkin is in the same boat as Trevor IMO--he\'s way beyond his prime, but he\'s a fixture as they say. The dude I really can\'t stand is the Churchill race caller, every race is like an orgasm to that guy as he builds up to the dramatic finish, even if there is zero drama in the race. He\'s completely annoying. Most of the time race callers who call my numbers please me the most.

[Topcat]

alm Wrote:
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> Denman is the public relations voice for SoCal
> racing.  Period.  He missed a spill?  Probably
> gave it a lot of thought before he decided it
> would be bad PR.  

\'WAY out of line.   He has a duty to his audience,
whether on-track or off.

[Rick B.]

Topcat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> alm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Denman is the public relations voice for SoCal
> > racing.  Period.  He missed a spill?  Probably
> > gave it a lot of thought before he decided it
> > would be bad PR.  
>
> \'WAY out of line.   He has a duty to his
> audience,
> whether on-track or off.

Nonsense. He has a duty to his EMPLOYER. Do you pay his salary? (No, not directly.)

As part of the \"SoCal Team\", Denman is a shameless homer who knows not to sh*t where he eats.

Shouldn\'t be that hard to understand...or accept.

[SoCalMan2]

I think that Churchill guy is named Mark Johnson or Mark Johnston, and I must say I thoroughly enjoy his calls.  In addition to enjoying his calls, I do think he has got the substance down.  I could see how people might not like his theatrics, but for me, the overwrought aspects do not overshadow the overall quality of his racecalls if one listens to what he is saying.

However, I loved Costy Caras as a race announcer -- to me, hearing his voice over the PA system was always a sure sign I was in paradise (i.e. a racetrack back in the days before living room downs and even ITW)

[jimbo66]

Alm and Rick B,

The race caller HAS to mention a fall as big as the one yesterday\'s 9th race had.  3 different horses were knocked out of the race, at least one jockey was thrown and potentially hurt.  

It was very shitty race call.  Forget about PR for Southern Cal or who his allegiance is to.  Should local baseball announcers not mention home runs by the opposing team?  Just skip them in their game call.

Whenever a good race caller sees an incident the first thing he does is find a way to mention whether or not the jockey gets up after the fall.  

To suggest that Denman saw the fall and decided to ignore it because of some obligation to Southern Cal racing is crazy.

BTW, check the internet.  There are calls for Denman\'s resignation in quite a few spots.  (I think that is overkill, but he clearly that was a big screwup)

[Topcat]

Rick B. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Topcat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > alm Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Denman is the public relations voice for
> SoCal
> > > racing.  Period.  He missed a spill?
> Probably
> > > gave it a lot of thought before he decided it
> > > would be bad PR.  
> >
> > \'WAY out of line.   He has a duty to his
> > audience,
> > whether on-track or off.
>
> Nonsense. He has a duty to his EMPLOYER. Do you
> pay his salary? (No, not directly.)
>
> As part of the \"SoCal Team\", Denman is a shameless
> homer who knows not to sh*t where he eats.
>
> Shouldn\'t be that hard to understand...or accept.


Please.   A leader by daylight breaks both forelegs at the
eighth pole . . . then, what does he say?

[Rick B.]

Topcat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please.   A leader by daylight breaks both
> forelegs at the
> eighth pole . . . then, what does he say?

That wasn\'t the case here.

Even if it was, some of you guys here believe that the racecaller has some sort of \"obligation\" to call everything that is happening during the race. While some racecallers *do* manage to fit everything in, it simply doesn\'t follow that it would become some de facto standard because of that.

Again, Denman is an employee of the RACETRACK -- he may very well have been told to give anywhere from \"minimal\" to \"no mention\" of accidents, etc., when possible. The racecall itself is copyrighted and owned by the presenting racetrack. Think about that.

[Topcat]

it\'s not as if it\'s going to be the last breakdown at Del Mar this summer.
Sad, but virtually-guaranteed.

[TGJB]

The purpose of having a race call is to get information to the public. If a horse breaks down and is out of the race, or others are impeded, that\'s certainly information, especially to those who bet those horses.

This conversation gets really interesting if you start considering Betfair allows bets during the running...

[P-Dub]

Dana666 Wrote:
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> The dude I really can\'t stand
> is the Churchill race caller, every race is like
> an orgasm to that guy as he builds up to the
> dramatic finish, even if there is zero drama in
> the race. He\'s completely annoying.

LOL, couldn\'t agree more Dana.  Don\'t understand why people love this guy so much.

[P-Dub]

The way he called the finish of the race, no way he saw the spill. Heard hundreds of Denman race calls, in the past he has mentioned spills during his call. He also tones it down at the finish, as Durkin always does, when an accident has occurred.

I\'m not excusing the oversight, incredible that he missed an accident like that one. I just don\'t think he saw it, for whatever reason.

[Fake Maven]

I agree here completely. There is no way Denman saw the spill. He would have muted his call if he had. I\'m not defending him as I think he\'s way past his freshness date but in no way did he see the spill and deliberately decide to ignore it.