Dutrow Hearing

[TGJB]

Again, trying to be nice here (and for the moment viewing this as someone who doesn\'t make figures he knows are extremely accurate)-- have someone who understands statistics explain this to you. (Though I will say this is somthing Ragozin doesn\'t understand either, in a different context-- he confuses methods used to measure small and larger sample sizes).

In an individual context the things you talk about matter-- if I was holding up as evidence ONE example, from a day where figure makers disagreed, it would not stand up as evidence. But over a larger sampling those things will wash out-- we will have some races faster than others do, and vica-versa. Neither I nor anyone else with a brain will make sweeping generalizations based on one or two examples, even when they are as extreme as the sheet I posted of the Scott Lake filly a couple of years ago. That was an example. A larger sampling is evidence. And you would see the same things I see if you looked at the figures of the other two guys as well.

[TGJB]

And by the way, how do you get Beyer 10 lengths different? He\'s got it very close to what I did.

[miff]

I\'ll try to be equally nice.After studying and comparing TG figs,Beyer figs and Rags figs for 5 years I have data that YOU don\'t.About 28% of the time, there is disagreement(2 points or more), about 72% of the time there is agreement(less than 2 points)

That does not qualify as isolated,as you suggest.There is no evidence, BASED on  comparative results, that ANY of the three fig makers are more accurate, even though you think you make them better than Mark Hopkins and Len Friedman.

Coming soon, you can purchase the best translation table on the planet, TG to Beyer to Rags. Get em, you\'ll learn something you dont know.

[miff]

I said from one end to the other, you left out Rags!

[TGJB]

Read my previous post again until you understand it. Done being nice.

[TGJB]

In this context Ragozin is irrelevant. I mean that seriously, for reasons I have gone into many times. By virtue of the rules they have, there will sometimes be huge differnces. The differences with Beyer will be of a different kind-- they don\'t make the mistakes Ragozin makes.

I can\'t wait to see the study of who\'s figures are more accurate, and the explanation of how you did it.

[plasticman]

Racing needs to start \'doing the right thing\' They need to \'clean house\' and start making serious changes. If Dutrow is being singled out as Miff suggests, well, than that\'s too bad, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, he will just be a casualty in the house cleaning process.

If the game ends up \'clean\' in 5 years and Dutrow is out of the sport pumping gas somewhere, i doubt many will shed a tear. If that\'s the price we have to pay to clean this sport up, that\'s a price i\'m willing to pay.

Its time to put HORSE RACING in the same sentence with honesty and integrity.

Lets start somewhere.

[SJU5]

TGJB:

NYSRWB still admits to some chain of custody procedural problems:

Jones testified that a shipment of urine and blood samples - which also contained the three syringes that were found in Dutrow' barn on Nov. 3 - were returned to the track because they had been sent to the wrong address[/b].

also:

Gonzalez said that following the notification of the positive he and a member of his staff did a search of Dutrow's Aqueduct barn on Dec. 18, during which no unauthorized drugs were found.

Koenig attempted to create a shadow of doubt over the chain of custody regarding the processing of the syringes. Gonzalez said he was given the syringes by state investigator Joel Leveson, but Gonzalez's name doesn't appear on a chain of custody sheet that was entered as evidence.

Jerry, to play devils advocate, stuff like this CANNOT continue to go on! Can we NOT GET this worked out? There CANNOT be any mistakes in the collection process and if any are uncovered they must be, unfortunately dismissed as evidence.

[albany]

Surprising that they are going forward with problems that a first year law student could identify.

Are there other aspects of the case that are solid?

[miff]

\"Are there other aspects of the case that are solid?\"


Albany,

There is no case. This comes down to the powers that be deciding whether Tricky\'s overall conduct is detrimental to NY racing.Calder used the same reason to banish Kirk Ziadie, thief extrodinaire!

Tricky is more guilty of being a persistent jackass in the blueblood controlled NY racing enviroment than a serious drug guy.Interesting how NY will handle say as Asmussen license renewal or a Mullins or whomever they perceive as a possible negative to NY racing.

Racing lightweight Albany phonies hold all the cards here.

Mike

[albany]

Mike:

Got your point.

By the way, I am very familar with Albany-based politicians/bureaucrats who often need a search warrant to find their own butts.

Albany

[moosepalm]

It wouldn\'t be hard to reach some general consensus about a potential grandstanding play by said bureaucrats.  They traffic in that on a daily basis.  To make that the issue, however, is to let the tail do the heavy wagging.  As JB said, the problem isn\'t the things he\'s been caught using. Sometimes karma requires an assist from misdirected forms of justice.

[FrankD.]

Mike,

I completely agree with your statement of \" there is no case \" any half ass lawyer would trash the chain of evidence debacle in a court of law and get him a stay or reinstatement. None of us should be surprised that the supreme idiots of NYRA could screw this up and continue the laughing stock that NY racing has become.

However his license does expire on August 2 I believe ? The easy way out will simply be a refusal to grant him a training license in NY for conduct detrimental to racing. They pretty much have carte blanche in that area without much recourse.

Tricky has spit in their faces as well as all of ours for years not caring about a post race positive or suspension. Why would he ? He\'s cashed 5 & 10 k bets and taken the money, partied his brains or lack there of out only to simply do it again next time he\'s broke ! He\'s no doubt a loathing self destructive character and a disgrace.

Worry not though, he eventually show up in a few years at Penn National or Charlestown and be hopping 2500 claimers into allowance scores taking down the slot money.

Meanwhile we\'ll still be having the same discussion about getting drugs out of the game and wondering why our archaic sport cannot attract any new plungers ?

[miff]

Frank D,

The thing that may eventually destroy the game is more likely to be the politicians, the clueless clowns that are called racing execs, the NYRA\'s, Jockey Clubs et al.

Tricky, minutia in the big picture.


Mike

[plasticman]

Actually, Tricky personally might be minutia in the big picture, but if he\'s the poster boy for cheating, it becomes a bigger deal than just him personally leaving the game never to return. I do agree with you that the clueless clowns as you put it will ruin the game....those are the ones who will permit Dutrow to continue to ply his trade at the expense of the backbone of the industry (the horseplayer).

It seems pretty odd that you would be defending this guy to the death, is someone paying you to say these things? Or, is he one of your relatives? I don\'t understand defending this guy with all the times he\'s cheated the system. Whether he\'s being singled out or not is \'minutia\' to the bigger picture which is cleaning up this game and cleaning it up any way we can. We have to start somewhere and kicking out the poster boy would be a great first step in a process that will rid the game of one cheater after another.

For many years, trainers have known that the punishments for drugging horses to rob purse money and betting money were light. The punishments are slaps on the wrists...why not take a shot? If i told you that the punishment in our society for armed bank robbery (for example) was a 2,500 fine and 30 days \'probation\' don\'t you think there would be a lot more bank robbery attempts? Sure there would, lots more.  

Trainers need to know that you COULD be kicked out of the sport for life if they cheat. They need to know that the punishments are not \'light\' but strong and getting stronger.

I would throw a party (and invite all of you) if the racing industry would start viewing trainers sticking illegal drugs into horses as race fixing and make it a federal crime.....that would incite a party at my place.

(but i\'m not holding my breath)