Dutrow Hearing

[miff]

Plastic,

The problem is also the perception of the Kool Aid drinker.There isn\'t ONE drug violation that Tricky has that is of consequence,including the excess for CO 2(discredited as a move up years ago by the aussies,check the data) You do not have any idea what drugs are purely move up/performance enhancers, I do, Tricky has never been caught with any.Never had a Class 1 or 2 violation, all else basic bullshit, widely used drugs by many,many trainers and permitted under the rules of the NYSWB within prescribed limits and time out from a race.

There are penalties on the books for offenders which are being enforced. If you  banned trainers for class 3 viloations there won\'t be too many trainers left in the game eventually.Strong support in some circles to ELIMINATE many class 3 drugs from the list as they are MEDICINAL not performance enhancing.


The Kool Aid drinker has more conspiracy theories without even a little knowledge of the facts of exactly what is really performance enhancing.

I know Tricky 20 years, not a friend, he\'s a nitwit but a guy with the Magic bullet, not even close.

Mike

[TGJB]

Miff-- please show me the data that discredits alkalyzing agents as a performance enhancer.

[miff]

Already here on an old string.I have the study, there are several, indicating in some cases just the opposite, some horses performed worse after being tubed.

It\'s class 3 status speaks volumes.

[FrankD.]

Mike,

I don\'t always agree with you but have learned to respect your opinion and vast areas of knowledge in the game. In particular our similar views of the \" clueless clowns \" who are destroying whats left of this game.

BUT:
I have to say that your way off base here. I\'m far from a conspiracy theorist,I understand that chiropractors, acupuncturists, vitamins, equipment changes and legal non race day meds can move a horse up, yes even sometimes creating a new top of 2,3 or or more points.

I too know Tricky and have seen his bad act up close and personal !  His girlfriend, the mother of his daughter was murdered in the city I grew up in and do a lot of business in. He was and is a loud mouth drunk and junkie who has made his own bed and as plastic states has become the poster boy for our beloved clowns. First Kentucky now NY will follow suit and not renew his license no matter what comes out of the current hearings.

Most of our clowns do not know the difference between a class 1 or class 99 violation but they can see 64 positives at 13 different tracks in a 10 year period. The mob rules, thumbs down and off with his head. Good Riddance he has brought this upon himself. Yes he is a complete nit wit and you don\'t have to be a rocket scientist or chemist to give a substance to a horse that a knowledgeable person tells you that it will not make them get tired ?

From Oscar Barrera to Pistol Ferriola to every other juice trainer you can come up with in the past 30 years there is a common thread. Their horses do not tire, they keep going regardless of fractions, numbers, conditions etc... There lungs stay open and they do not produce lactic acid, case closed. Yes the cheats and chemists are way ahead of the testers. They can only test for a known entity, if they don\'t know what there testing for ?

So come on with Tricky and the only class 3 violations ? He\'s cheated, he\'s bragged about it in drunken stupors and has regularly been seen stuffing his pockets after a race. You can go even a step further and take a sample of horses that have been claimed from him or have changed hands and see what they\'ve done after for new connections ? Makes him look \" BRILLIANT \" !!!

There is no defending this guy his mouth and actions have brought it all upon himself.

Frank D.

[TGJB]

Good. Show it to me.

Boy, you have to wonder why he loaded the horse up then. As I recall, the horse blew a 42. I mean, risk/reward seems kind of bad.., maybe Allday didn\'t know.

While you\'re searching for that study you might come across the California one from 4-5 years ago, also on a string here. The one that shows direct correlation between TCO2 level and finish position.

[SJU5]

During cross-examination, Koenig pointed out several inconsistencies in Leveson's testimony and his written report, including the color of the substance found in the syringe and the volume of the syringe. Leveson initially thought the syringes were 6 cubic centimeters, when they were in fact 3 cubic centimeters. For a person with 14 years experience in drug testing, it\'s a little unbelievable how he can make that mistake

Koenig also noted that in the chain of custody of the handling of the evidence bag containing the syringes, the names of all the people who handled the bag were not recorded.

Though Leveson stated in his report that he "exhausted all leads" in his investigation, he testified that he did not investigate that claim nor did he interview three veterinarians whom Dutrow, in a subsequent interview, suggested he contact.

Joel Leveson, the board's director of investigations since 1997,was training two New York Racing Association employees how to do conduct a barn search. However, Leveson further testified that he did not conduct a "full-fledged" search, even after stumbling upon the syringes.

AND THIS IS OUR LEAD INVESTIGATOR FOR NYSRWB??? Did they wear gloves when they handled the syringes to then get proper fingerprints to lead them as to the ownership of them-whether it was in fact Dutrow, or vets, or asst trainer? Did they take photos? If they acting like this is a crime, then send in QUALIFIED people to collect evidence and treat it as such. I\'m NOT sticking up for Dutrow, BUT these types of things happen more frequently in racing than is needed!

[miff]

4-5 years ago?? Milkshakes were detected in Australia in the 70\'s.Mid 70\'s  I bought 15 horses in training in Australia and New Zealand who were shaked, some went forward some backward.

AGAIN, tubing is very OLD news, what part of that don\'t you get??

[TGJB]

Show me a serious recent study or knock it off. There\'s a recent very detailed study on this subject, over a large sampling, in this country. A vague reference to a vague study from 30 years ago in another country ain\'t gonna cut it. Neither is an anecdote.

[miff]

Last post, believe what you will.Horses that I owned and raced in THIS country at Yonkers and Roosevelt were given, in their feed, electrolytes, bicarbonate or baking soda and maybe something else( all the ingredients of a shake at that time). This was recommended by the Australian people we purchased the horses from.It was stated that this was a feed supplement used there and helpful to some horses.I am unaware if this was a forbidden practice at the time but we never got called in for it.

The results were supposed to be that the horse could sustain his best longer,not run faster.Well between gastric problems with a few, a few winners, and no positive effect on several others, my trainer abandoned the \"supplements\" after about 6 months. The horses performed no better or worse but the frequent gastric problems went away.

Don\'t know if there\'s a better shake concoction today, if not,old news, at least to me.


Mike

[BB]

Well, that clears THAT up!

[alm]

I think Mike\'s made 2 points:

First, even if you take Dutrow out of the business you won\'t have done anything serious to clean it up, other than to puff out your chest.

Second, trainers who regularly move up their horses are not all doing something illegal...so don\'t jump to conclusions.

In my experience, he is right on both counts.  Some trainers are doing far more serious damage to their horses, the bettors and the business than Dutrow is doing.  Some good trainers are achieving remarkable results by elevating the treatment of their horses, as you indicate.

At this point, I\'m mostly bored with this topic...all the bloviating on this site will change nothing.  Hats off to Jerry for his hard work on the subject...I hope Mike has sharpened his focus even if he has annoyed the boss.

Far more importantly, after giving the topic a great deal of thought, I have come to a conclusion as to why Jerry Brown doesn\'t find Larry David funny....it\'s because these two characters share the same personality.  Think about it.

[moosepalm]

Even when operating in full-tilt civil libertarian mode, I really find it hard to conjure up much sympathy for Dutrow.  His offense is not mitigated by the fact that others do the same, nor that the tribunals before whom he appears shouldn\'t be giving out parking tickets.  These are separate issues.  In a game where we all operate with some kind of probability mindset, how difficult is it to feel anything other than confident that a man with 60+ transgressions really doesn\'t think that he needs to abide?  In a sport that appears to be policed with a Barney Fife-like efficiency in some jurisdictions, the absence of iron clad evidence of wrongdoing doesn\'t engender much sympathy in the face of serial flaunting of more easily enforceable rules.  I\'ll sleep easily with the rather slim possibility there is a miscarriage of justice afoot.  The underlying issue is integrity.  Rationalizations don\'t cut it.  In another sport, not dependent in the least upon perceptions of a betting public, the most iconic and heroic sports figure of the past two decades, is about to come tumbling down from Mt. Olympus for cheating.  If I don\'t have sympathy for him, even with my yellow bracelet, I sure as hell won\'t have any for this character.  When they blow the whistle, lower the flag or open the starting gate, the bottom line is that there has to be a level playing field.  It is not the kind of question where benefits of the doubt are doled out based on comparative offenses or administrative incompetency. Wrong is wrong.  When we\'re done with him, bring on the next guy, and then the one after him.

[miff]

Al,

What most don\'t get here is that I am not defending Dutrow or his personal very bad habits as Frank D also noted.

THEY\'RE after Tricky in an effort to deflect criticism from themselves and their detailed record of incompetence. EVERY major venue/Racing Association(e.g.Jockey Club) and Politician is hitching their wagons to the popular \"clean up the game theme\" for PR reasons and the obvious decline the game is in, handle wise.They want a major scalp.Who better than an in your face loud mouth drunk/ personal drug abusing gambler(more too, but this is PG rated)

None of them say why the \"wild west\" blind eye attitude was pervasive for so many prior years while the game was under the stewardship of many of these same of Clueless Clowns.

So if they get Tricky,the Clueless Clowns can stick out their chests but nothing meaningful was accomplished.The handle will most likely continue to slide, the game really no better off.

Mike

[alm]

That\'s a very nice sentiment.  Apply it throughout this sport and throughout time (such as taking trainers and their horses out of our Hall of Fame - the Horse of the Year for example) and you end up with a lot of blank walls and short fields.

However, and I don\'t mean to speak for Mike, he\'s tried to make the point that the diversion of going after an idiot is only wasting resources from going after the big time transgressors.

[TGJB]

Mike-- you\'re about half right on this one. Some of the people in question do have good intentions but have no idea what to do to stop the drugs, some are full of crap and are only concerned with the \"perception\" problem. But there is now also the fear of Federal intervention, which scares these guys to death, and makes them want to show they are doing something.

There are actual, concrete steps that can be taken to begin to deal with the problem. The first is to force every jurisdiction to publish all drug test results in detail-- without baseline info there is no way to know what the hell is really going on. If you don\'t test for drugs it makes no difference what you ban, and if you don\'t announce the positives and punish those you catch it makes no difference what you test for.

Human nature being what it is, some people are always going to try to cheat. There are going to be a few bad cops, a few bad people in every profession. The problem is that the industry has been completely lacadaisical and incompetent in dealing with them. It\'s on the industry.