TGJB: I\'ll take 14-1. How much do you want to take?

fkach: Let me think about it.

miff: \"Yeah, we need another pseudo tough guy that will help with terrorist recruiting.\"



....no, we need a nice pacifist so that we will all be praying to Allah in the coming years, get real.

TGJB: Miff-- We need neither. And you show me one piece of evidence, of any kind, in statements or actions by Bin Laden or anyone else, that indicates they want America to become Muslim.

They want us to leave. They view themselves as fighting a defensive war, with 99% of the activity taking place on their soil. They don\'t care what we do over here.

Which is no justification for terrorism, there is none. But terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology.

miff: Jerry,

You are WAY off base.Conversion of the world to the \"Muslim\' way is the overall goal of extremists. By the way, where did they want us to leave when they knocked down the world trade center??

Mike

fkach: I\'m totally in the middle on this issue, but IMHO, virtually no one really \"gets it\".

There are two things going on.

1. There is resentment about U.S. interference in the middle east.

a) Protecting the oil supply for most of our major trading partners in addition to ourselves. This is basically the bases, wars, interference in local politics, support for unpopular regimes etc...

b) Our relationship with Israel


2. Some \"not insignificant\" percentage of Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere would like to organize according to the rules of Islam. That would make the Middle East and other places incompatible with most of the rest of the world economically and socially. Unlike most other major religions in their modern form, Islam is really more like a political and economic system than just a religion. This is partially related to #1, but it\'s also an economic issue for other reasons elsewhere in the world.

There are now competing ideologies within Islam and outside it between the political/economic form of Islam and the democratic/capitalist/globalist countries.

This is also an issue wherever there are large numbers of Muslim immigrants. There\'s always some percentage that don\'t want to follow domestic law etc... and this causes conflict.

The \"right\" understands the oil issues and what would happen to the global economy if we didn\'t interfere to some degree UNTIL WE HAVE A VIABLE ECONOMIC ALTERNATIVE and can IMPLEMENT IT.

The \"right\" understand the extent of the \"idealogical\" issues.

The \"right\" does not seem to grasp that our interference is causing many of our problems.

No one will touch the Israeli/Palestinian issue openly and honestly for fear of losing their careers.

The \"left\" understands all the interference issues, but doesn\'t seem to have a full grasp of the extent of the idealogical issues that really do exist in the Middle East and wherever there are large numbers of Muslim immigrants. They also don\'t grasp the economics of oil vs. alternatives at this time. Actually they rarely understand economics at all. ;-)

TGJB: Miff-- the Middle East in general, and Saudi Arabia in particular. Bin Laden\'s had a bug up his butt about our being there for a long time.

As I have pointed out here before-- my girlfriend wrote a book about Iran (\"Neither East Nor West, One Woman\'s Journey Through The Republic Of Iran\') that Barnes and Noble named among the top ten books of that year, number one travel book. She is a blue eyed blonde. She taught herself Farci and traveled all over Iran (not just Tehran, like most), by herself, AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. In fact, she was often invited into people\'s homes for dinner.

She went back to the region to write a book about the Kurds, but both trips were before we went into Iraq. I would not want her to go there now. Which goes to my point about Guliani.

miff: Jerry,

Last post. Arab people are good and decent on the whole. Muslim extremists, on the other hand, are sick delusional ideologs(sp) that need to be DEAD!,no ands, ifs or buts.

Mike

NoCarolinaTony: Where you talking about Bill Clinton again?

You couldn\'t be talking about my Goombah?

NC Tony

TGJB: Some of us are capable of having extremely negative (ahem) opinions of Clinton, Guliani, AND Bush. Don\'t get me started.

NoCarolinaTony: No politician, celebrity, or business person is immune from criticism and opinion (pro or con). I was angling towards brevity.

If you ask my opionion, none of the above would be my answer to all list of candidates (listed). I\'m voting for Joe Walsh.(eagles)

NC Tony

BB: It\'s because they\'re not really sure about the \"Democrat\" part with her!

BB: Tony;

Didn\'t I hear Skunk Baxter got elected somewhere? I hope that was true. I\'d like to think someone named Skunk could actually hold high elective office.

BB: Consultant to the Pentagon, not high elected office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_%22Skunk%22_Baxter

alm: When I thought this site\'s concentration on the drug issue got out of whack, I promised to stop commenting on it myself...not that it did much good.

However, this nonsense about politics is ten times more boring.  This will be my only observation on it.

For the first time in a long time it appears that a party nomination might actually get into a deadlock.  I am referring to the Democrats and the splits being reported in primary polls.  There\'s a chance not one of these fools will emerge with a mandate.

We have not had a real convention in so long I can\'t remember, so what happens if the primaries don\'t result in a clear winner?  There\'s no other possible resolution but a real convention.

If the Dems are forced into a convention deadlock, I think Gore becomes their nominee.  Who wants to give odds on that outcome?