Dead Horses Tell No Tales

[richiebee]

ALM:

In support of your contention one could point to the great meet hay oats and
water Hall of Famer William I.(and the I stands for Ichabod) Mott is having,
yet on the flip side Rick Dutrow is sending out winners at a 33% clip.

I believe that I read in DRF that NYRA will be reevaluating its detention
regime, possibly realizing that what used to be accomplished with syringes and
surgical tubing close to post time is now being accomplished (allegedly) with
timed release oral supplements.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

miff Wrote:
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> CTC said,
>
>
> \"It may be that the subject horses did not all run
> last race career tops. If they didn\'t it wouldn\'t
> change the fact that their deaths were Not random.
> But a finding by Tgraph that they were career tops
> would add even more weight to the issue\"
>
>
>
> ....run a top on TG and risk dying!! Hee Hee.
> Chuck, surely, you had too many beers when you
> posted that.The idea that horses that run fast
> figs breakdown or die more often than slower
> runners is only opinion with no facts to support
> it.

Miff, you\'ve taken a very focused premise and expanded it to the ends of the universe. I said no such thing. I said that the Non Random Sample of Plech\'s August 2002 Die Off Ran Fast in their last races. Won those races and died within days thereafter, even from all things as One Week Accellerated Laminitis.

Most breakdowns/injuries, app 20 to 1 at NY
> tracks,occur during training, breezing, jogging
> etc as opposed to during a race(natch,they train
> far more often than they run).To what extent the
> PREVIOUS race/races plays in breakdowns is subject
> to widely varying opinions.
>
> It makes sense that powerful drugs could add up to
> death/breakdowns but that has not been proven
> yet.On a related subject, there are all sorts of
> RUMORS with regard to the case involving Patrick
> Biancone.It seems the KY racing authority has gone
> to unprecedented lengths to ensure their legal
> position before proceeding with their
> findings.Sounds ominous for the frenchman.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike

[alm]

Good observation, but RD isn\'t entering many is he?  May just be picking his spots better at Saratoga.  I could be dead wrong in any case.  I will just bet as if I am right...it hasn\'t turned out badly this season.

[Barry Irwin]

Steroids use is fairly widespread among trainers, especially by those horsemen whose approach to medication is that they will use anything under the sun that might help them win a race.

The appropriate use of steroids, as farm as vets are concerned, is for a) hormone replacement therapy for geldings and b) as an appetite inducer for horses that are not eating well.

Invariably, steroids are used for two things, which are a) to add muscle mass and b) to allow horses to recover from races and hard training.

The last-mentioned use is far and away the most significant plus factor for the use of steroids.

I would say that at the major tracks, a majority of horsemen use as a minimum small doses on a regular basis.

[Barry Irwin]

Silver Charm, your reasoning suggests that if a trainer such as Pletcher is cheating that his horses will automatically win, which makes little sense. The three horses you mentioned that were raced by Todd Pletcher were beaten at a very high level of racing. Is it just not possible for you to imagine that at this high level some horses are just better than others, regardless of what they may be administered? Based on your reasoning a guy like Pletcher should be winning at 100 percent if he gives them illegal substances.

I understand what your real point is and know where you are coming from.

But I humbly submit to you that even if a guy like Todd is cheating that this and this alone does not insure victory.

As for the 3 horses in questions, Sunriver\'s class is still not fully known on the grass; Red Giant ditto; and English Channel has been hard used of late. The two at Arlington ran on a surface that tired out seasoned, top horses.

Bad examples this time, sir.

[Barry Irwin]

Here goes my final comment about Lawyer Ron.

Any trainer will tell you that the most important person in dealing with a racehorse is the exercise rider.

You can take a top horse, give him an incompetent exercise rider and in less than a day or two that has horse can be rendered useless.

I have heard this time and time again over the last 38 years in racing.

It is a measure of The Clown\'s mania over proving that Pletcher is a bad guy that he not only overlooks this important information, but calls it comical.

I am not making this stuff up.

I am the guy who bought the horse for the current majority owner. I saw the problem with my own eyes. And everybody at Churchill Downs knows that the horse was compromised by the exercise rider.

Now anybody that will not even consider this change of riders to be important just doesn\'t want to listen. In the case of The Clown, he has an agenda that leaves no room for this explanation.

[Silver Charm]

Barry Irwin wrote,

\"I understand what your real point is and know where you are coming from.\"

I believe you do understand my point. And with all do respect to someone as knowledgeable as yourself.

When all of the EPO suspicions and accuations were being made in the last five years. Pletcher trained horses who had the lead at the eighth pole probably were 100% guaranteed winners.    

I am not the first person on this Board to have made that previous observation. TGJB or maybe Michael D. may have been one of the others. But I am the first regarding last weekends results.

Only time will tell I guess.

[Ill-bred]

There have been major advancements in EPO testing over the last two years, and many states are now testing for blood-doping agents.

If Epogen was giving certain horsemen an edge, their days should be numbered.

[bordercollie]

Where is the board going with all of this stuff? Tales of dead horses,Columbo and TAP,enough already. I would imagine in only a perfect world, the board would be filled with handicapping races or good looking patterns, not day time tv.

[P-Dub]

bordercollie Wrote:
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> Where is the board going with all of this stuff?
> Tales of dead horses,Columbo and TAP,enough
> already. I would imagine in only a perfect world,
> the board would be filled with handicapping races
> or good looking patterns, not day time tv.


Drugs affect handicapping races and good looking patterns.

In a perfect world, drugs wouldn\'t be as pervasive as they presently are.

Drugs are a major issue, nothing wrong with discussing them here, doesn\'t matter what side of the argument you agree with.

When people like Barry Irwin take the time to comment on various subjects, as well as the many other successful and intelligent people around here, I don\'t see how that is comparable to \"day time tv\".

[bordercollie]

I\'m sure we all bet at one time or another, TAP, Dutrow,Lake, Mullins, Contessa and numerous others, the guys that are accused of using all the time. My point is talking about doesn\'t do anything about anything, we are going to bet their runners and bet against them.

[marcus]

Mike -

Glad to see Bianconne getting some mention . Going back to 2005 , Chekhov ran IMO  curious numbers including a 6 pt top h?  ...
But before I send the next one out to D.H. Lawrence , My personal impression of English Channel had him destined for place last weekend , he figured to be wide and has been a point off his top all year ...
Also , after following Chucks pedigree quarry , which he thankfully provided , I was wondering if anyones heard of \"Sudden Laminitus Syndrome\" ?

mark

[Barry Irwin]

Chris McCarron stated when he retired from racing that one of the reasons was that he was sick of watching horses finish in front of him that were not getting tired inside the eighth pole.

We all saw this same thing, commented on it and knew who the trainers were that were milkshaking and using EPO or something akin to it.

Why do you think there was such an uproar a few years ago?

But if you think that Pletcher needs Silver Charm to let the world know that he may not be cheating anymore, you are either smoking your socks or drinking your bathwater (with all due respect of course).

Anybody in his position would have to be loco to be using any illegal substances to positively impact wind at this point.

This is NOT news, my friend.

(And there is no proof that Pletcher ever used these things.)

[TGJB]

AGAIN-- the way the rules are set up, a trainer can be using performance enhancing drugs on his horses, and not be doing anything \"illegal.\"

Aside from alkalizing agents, I believe California (and only recently) is the only state to do any testing to distinguish whether Clenbuterol is being used as a race day drug, as opposed to the way it is supposed to be used (therapeutically). Since this is a powerful bronchial dilator we\'re talking about, the difference is not academic.

[cubfan0316]

right barry, do you think hes going to use them all the time? man your not getting it are you?