Miscellaneous

[Mall]

1. What happened at the seminar? I thought I\'d have seen at least 1 or 2 comments by now, &  at one pt. was even considering a request that it also be \"webcast\", even though I\'m not sure exactly what one is unless it includes live races on the internet. Of course, I had no idea I was behind a \"firewall\" either, & thought everybody gave cookies up for lent.

2. I have to renege on my promise to discuss the Fotias book on the ground that although it contains some interesting theories, it is not an appropriate topic for this Bd. For HP\'s benefit, I will mention that he quotes his late friend \"Charts\" as saying: \"The rarest of human qualities is an open mind.\"

3. The derby talk is interesting at times, but isn\'t this another situation where patience is underrated? There are quite a few major preps which have yet to be run, Treadhead, so don\'t start eliminating horses from your HQ at Beulah. In fact, if for some bizarre reason Pitt loses in Lex on Thurs., I don\'t see any reason why I can\'t consider your Request for Parole on the way home on Sat., which may or may not be a good thing re your chances of getting out of jail before serving your full term.

[TGJB]

I think you are relatively new to TG. We have probably given 50 or more seminars over the years, although this is the first in about 3 years- we\'ve been concentrating on the web.
The seminar went very well, according to Stauffer and Bill Goldsmith. About 70 showed up, most of them serious handicappers. The Ragozin guys(Hardoon and Nebel)had a table set up a few yards away. They only had a few people, and abandoned the table after a few minutes. The highlight of the day(swear to God)was when Hardoon then came over to Stauffer and asked whether they could participate with us in a joint seminar. Stauffer politely declined.

[kev]

Where and when was this??

[TGJB]

Gulfstream, last Saturday morning.

[kev]

Do you all ever put these on Tape?? of some sort.

[TGJB]

No. If you haven\'t already heard it, there is an Intro Seminar available on this site, and ROTW is a seminar every week.

[rothlaw]

Jerry- I usually respect you and you are typically forthright, but you should tell everyone the true facts @ Gulfstream: Because of your  relationship with Stauffer, TGraph was provided an air conditioned room and desks for the attendees, while the conditions for the Raggies were primitive, at best. I do not mind when you point out your advantages over your competitor, but in this case, your comments were a little illusory and misleading.

[HP]

So you\'re saying that the Ragozin group can\'t arrange a seminar in the better facilities? The track is biased against them? We could have a nice chat about what the Raggies have been doing down there for years. One of those guys (I believe Nebel) was banned from the track for awhile. Why don\'t you ask them about it? HP

[TGJB]

mitchell roth wrote:
>
> Jerry- I usually respect you and you are typically
> forthright, but you should tell everyone the true facts @
> Gulfstream: Because of your  relationship with Stauffer,
> TGraph was provided an air conditioned room and desks for the
> attendees, while the conditions for the Raggies were
> primitive, at best. I do not mind when you point out your
> advantages over your competitor, but in this case, your
> comments were a little illusory and misleading.

TG--We got the air conditioned room because 1. We were the ones who initiated the idea for a seminar, and Ragozin and the others were invited in on our coattails, and 2. when Ragozin gives a SEMINAR, they charge for it. Gulfstream likes that we give away stuff for free to their customers, so Nebel and Hardoon were just given a table. It is also worth noting that Nebel is one of the Ragozin operatives we caught on tape telling potential customers we don\'t use ground loss in our figures. That\'s why their request was so nervy, and why you\'ll have a hard time getting any sympathy out of me.

[Jim]

How about an objective review of what happened at Gulfstream and the \"operatives\"? This is what I have heard and/or experienced.

#1 Thorograph asked to have a seminar.

#2 GP asked Ragozin if they wanted to have one also.

#3 Thorograph\'s operative (a Gulfstream Park employee, no less) gave their seminar in a comfortable location, while Ragozin might as well have brought a table and plopped it in the middle of the paddock. Even Jim Mazur had a better spot.

#4 Your assertion that Nebel was thrown off of Gulfstream is incorrect. He was caught on tape? Who are you? Linda Tripp? Too funny!!

#5 Another Thorograph operative, Jungle Jen Burke gives free thorograph ads in the midst of her job in exchange for free sheets. She was asked to cease this by the Marketing Guru, Dave Rovine, but continues, putting her job in jeopardy. Funny thing is, her picks are so bad that it is a deterrant to TG sales.

#6 Thorograph has been so desperate that it was selling 5 or 6 sets for the price of one and regularly loses money (on shipping, which they have to pay in cash) sending their sheets to South FL.

What happened to all the ads in the Daily Racing Form? Did the DRF finally wise up?

[AT]

At the risk of being flamed by both sides, I have to pipe in here. Jerry, I know you consider me a Raggie, but I actually use your product more often now. ( I know, the rare animal that uses both products with confidence, strange concept around here.)

The main reasons I use your product more often is due to your company\'s markedly better customer service. I just couldn\'t bare waiting 5-6 hours to get sheets faxed to me in order to tie up my phone for 30-60mins any longer. Your online availabilty and attempts to continually improve your product-- though I still hate having the grid on the online product-- is to be commended.

I just hate this periodic harping against the big bad Raggies. I can honestly say that when I was a strict Ragozin user, I NEVER heard TG bad-mouthed. Now I\'m not so naive to think that it doesn\'t happen but it\'s hardly as wide-spread as you\'d have us believe. They are an arrogant bunch and honestly believe their numbers are substantially better. That\'s part of the reason they don\'t seem to give a hoot about customer service, let alone the competition.

If you\'d just focus upon what you bring that they don\'t-- superior customer service, online availabilty, additional features-- I think you\'d be better off. Defend your turf when necessary but this type of gratutious attack just makes you look petty.

Nevertheless, keep those great SoCAl numbers coming....

[HP]

Then Nebel was booted at Calder. It was one or the other. He\'s a prize and you can have him either way. HP

[TGJB]

You guys just never get tired of getting the crap kicked out of you in public.
1) Correct.

2) Correct. Someone associated with Ragozin(I can guess who)then told Alex Rodriguez, who was handling the whole thing for Gulfstream, that they would give a seminar too, for free, with Ragozin giving it. I told Alex that was extrememly unlikely, since they never have given a free seminar, and Ragozin never leaves New York. Sure enough, it turned out they weren\'t going to give a seminar, and Ragozin wasn\'t coming. He still gave them a table, despite the fact they were doing NOTHING for Gulfstream customers, only helping themselves. They also allowed Hardoon to give 5 days of handicapping get togethers, more than they deserved.

3) Stauffer gets free sheets from us, and occasionally gives a seminar. Harvey Pack got free sheets from Ragozin. Among the things he did--

  a) Introduced Ragozin on air for 30 minutes, and replayed the show 3 times.
  b) Banned anyone from mentioning Thoro-Graph on air(lots of his guests used our figures).
  c) Banned Bill Finley, who had previously been a regular, for 2 years, because he was on the same show as me(Post Time). When Post Time went off the air, Pack allowed Bill back. He introduced him as follows: \"We\'re letting Bill Finley back on the show. He did something wrong, but I\'ve decided to forgive him.\"
  d) In the Paddock Club at Saratoga, calling TG the \"cheap sheets\", and saying other derogatory things about us. I eventually threatened to sue, and Alan Gutterman of NYRA made Harvey stop.
As I pointed out above, the fact that Ragozin had a table in ANY location was more than they deserved, since they were doing NOTHING for Gulfstream or their customers.

4) As far as I know, Nebel has been barred from Florida tracks twice. Once was for trying to sell passes the track gave him to hand out free to big bettors. I don\'t remember what the other time was for, or which track, and it was a long time ago. It\'s always possible I remember that one wrong, but I don\'t think so.
As far as the taping- thank you for letting me bring that up again. As those who were on this site a year ago know, our lawyer sent a letter to Ragozin advising him that we were aware of several unfair business practices his employees were engaging in. We also sent along transcripts of conversations our Private Detective had(and taped)with Ragozin employees, in which they lied about us. We made the letter public, it created a big stink, and TO THIS DAY THE RAGOZIN OFFICE HAS NEVER RESPONDED.
You can draw your own conclusions. If you want we can post the lawyer\'s letter again, but if you have Ragozini\'s interests at heart I wouldn\'t advise it.

5) Jennifer Burke uses our data, and quotes from it when she discusses the races(see Harvey Pack, 3, above).

6) A few weeks ago we started a promotional campaign in Florida(and since then in New York and Chicago)where customers who bought a set of sheets for the primary track were getting a free copy of the simulcast book. Believe me, we weren\'t losing money. We began charging for the simulcast package in Florida after the seminar.
We pay for our shipping by check, same as your outfit. That \"cash\" claim is a perfect example of the Ragozin tactics, as detailed in the lawyer\'s letter. The DRF hosted our website until a couple of weeks ago. They were getting a big chunk of sales(high five figures last year)as part of the deal, and we were getting \"free\" advertising. They no longer host the site, and we buy ads when we need them. Like the ads we ran for the Gulfstream seminar, promoting a FREE event that benefitted Gulfstream and its customers. Did you see any Ragozin ads?

If you\'re gonna come to the hoop, bring some game.

[TGJB]

Did you read Jim\'s post? Did you see our lawyer\'s letter? With all due respect(because you seem like a good guy), wake up.

[Jim]

Jerry,

I hardly think you kick the crap out of me. I will say that post was much closer to the truth than what you had previously put up above. I am not currently, nor have I ever been, an employee of Ragozin.

Your characterization of Nebel and his situation is/was incorrect. But hey, you are going to spin everything as negatively as possible so I won\'t get into it with you.

I never said you were losing money on your promotion. But you will admit that when you ship your sheets to FL during the summer, the sales do not cover the shipping quite often, won\'t you? Check/cash is the same thing as far as I\'m concerned. Are you saying that Ragozin doesn\'t have credit? Can you say you do?

You should get off the kick that you are trying to do something beneficial for Gulfstream and their patrons. That\'s a joke. As if you care. You did it to promote your product, plain and simple. Just be honest - I know I would certainly respect you a whole lot more. As it is....