pletcher

TGJB,

\"it is simple, effective, and legal, at the moment.\"

If that\'s the case then can you really blame those that have access to it for using it other than if it is unsafe for the horses?

Aren\'t steroids (and the like) legal and wouldn\'t something like that explain how a horse that\'s out for 2 months or so could come back so much better - like one particular trainer has a habit of doing.

If it is legal, then I think the problem is within the industry itself. In a game like this, I think it\'s up to the industry to set the rules and not just expect people to not use things like that. There are always people that will venture into legal grey areas looking for an edge when there\'s big money on the line.      

HP,

I didn\'t mean to be combative if that\'s the way it came off. I\'m just saying that IMO, it isn\'t all drugs.  

[HP]

Class,

No problem.

But you must know you have no way of knowing how much of it is drugs.  And that\'s not my opinion, it\'s a fact.  

HP

[MInfurna]

Its not really hard for Pletcher to spot his horses. He has very few claimers in his barn and if he does, they are for longstanding clients. Ususally, his firsters win first or second out. If they are good, they go into stakes and if they are average, they go through their allowance conditions. Doesn\'t seem he needs to be an expert to spot horses.

[TGJB]

Milkshakes were legal until they weren\'t, and they don\'t harm the horse. Would you really want to have a situation where you would never know who was using them and who wasn\'t, and whether a horse was being run \"hot\" or \"cold\" last time, and today? It would be kind of like... what we have now. And it makes this an inside information game-- yes, we can make deductions, but we are betting against some people who KNOW.

TGJB,

No I definitely don\'t want milkshakes, steroids, or anything else like that even if they are legal.  I was just commenting on the general tendency of people to seek out those types of edges when a lot of money is on the line. So it\'s up to the industry to set the standards a lot higher. If you leave it up to the participants, they will simply say I didn\'t break any laws or rules and they would be right.  

[HP]

The standards are apparently high enough to catch Todd Pletcher several times in several jurisdictions, and it doesn\'t seem to have a decisive impact on the public impression of the guy as some kind of great horseman.  I find this incredible.  Hopefully this time around it will be different, and reporters will be asking him about his repeated cheating and drugging of horses instead of kissing his ass about how great he is.  I doubt it.

Previous suspensions and positives notwithstanding, Teflon Todd Pletcher was treated like a wizard during Triple Crown season, and the issue of his success and rumored (and confirmed by suspension!) drug use was nowhere to be found in the mainstream racing press (and they talked to him plenty).  I think the toughest roasting Pletcher has gotten has been on this board!  My bet is that this whole thing will blow over and Pletcher will be right on track for another big season at Saratoga.  

Same old, same old.

HP

[Kasept]

Minfurna\'s dead on..

Take the PP\'s of Flower Alley, Bandini and Coin Silver and look at them together.. Pletcher\'s pattern is obvious, at least with these types.. All three debuted flat.. Ran well out of contention and received low figs. Then, they all jumped up to 80-ish Beyers and equivilent TG\'s in their 2nd starts. (Two of them broke their MDN in that 2nd start and one of them needed a third start as I recall). Anyway.. The pattern of development was nearly identical with all three.
 

[Dr. Fager]

Of course milkshakes \"don\'t harm the horse\".

Milkshakes can only kill them.

For reference, see the two following excellent newspaper articles:

1.  San Diego Union-Tribune, September 15, 2004, A Rising Problem for Horse

Racing, by Brent Schrotenboer, which quotes Richard Sams and George Maylin, both

well known veterinarians

2.  The Sar Ledger, July 29, 2001, Trouble at the Track, by Brad Parks.

You can easily locate these articles by doing a Google serach using the

words, \"milkshake\" and \"horse\" and \"die\".

[SJU5]

OK Jerry...just got in...lot\'s of talk regading TP eh?  

1st comment: Why does it take 11 months for the NYS Racing Commision to discuss the positive results of a test with TP?  The drug test results are confirmed by Cornell in 48-72 hours by GC/MS confirmation. Jockey\'s are reviewed and meet with NYS stewards within 48 hours for their transgressions and suspended quickly. Trainers can wait 10-11 months??? Sounds very fishy with NYS Racing Board. I can\'t think of any possible legitimate reasons why the delay in drug test result notifications by the stewards.

Here\'s more info regarding the time the drug in question is retained in the kidneys before it\'s excreted (and this is for kidneys that are NOT on lasix which quicken the urine flow):

\" Mepivacaine, because of its amide structure, is not detoxified by the circulating plasma esterases. Mepivacaine is rapidly metabolized. The liver is the principal site of metabolism, with over 50 per cent of the administered dose being excreted into the bile as metabolites. Most of the metabolized mepivacaine is probably resorbed in the intestine and then excreted into the urine, since only a small percentage is found in the feces. The principal route of excretion is via the kidneys. Most of the anaesthetic and its metabolites are eliminated within 30 hours.

A percentage of up to 16 per cent of the dose administered is excreted unchanged in the urine.\"

So this talk that the drug stays in system LONGER than expected is questionable at best. IMO, the horse raced within that 30 hour window after getting this injection if enough of the drug showed in a post race drug test!

I hope you got my other email regarding supplements!

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

MInfurna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not really hard for Pletcher to spot his
> horses. He has very few claimers in his barn and
> if he does, they are for longstanding clients.
> Ususally, his firsters win first or second out. If
> they are good, they go into stakes and if they are
> average, they go through their allowance
> conditions. Doesn\'t seem he needs to be an expert
> to spot horses.


Training has always been an experience and patience game, a grey hair\'s game. Take Afleet Alex\'s trainer for instance. Ritchey is about 55 years old and has been at it for about 30 years. Its takes that kind of experience to understand that horses are individuals that many times will respond differently to different routines. The whole thing is nonverbal of course and it requires great powers of observation and empathy. Within all of this comes Todd Pletcher who cut his teeth on the routine of the then huge Lukas operation. If there was ever a successful trainer that followed a script it was Wayne Lukas. Bring in the large freshman class, put them all through the same drills and those that don\'t come down sick or injured play on game day. Pletcher obviously learned Luka\'s organizational abilitites but somehow in the period of three to four years he completely eclipsed his mentor on the track. Pletcher is a relatively young man, so where did all this training acumen suddenly come from? How was Lukas so quickly marginalized? Add to the equation the fact that at the same time a real grey hair (Bobby Frankel) also began training like he had never trained before. One young, one long in the tooth, but both suddenly having in common, the very top of the earnings list. Anything else in common?

Personally, I\'m sick of hearing about quality stock and placement of animals in this matter. Todd Pletcher is still wet behind the ears in this game and cheating shouldn\'t make it so easy to marginalize trainers that are true horsemen.

[richiebee]

Enough already.

You all sound like you are ready to make the final sacrifice. Here\'s how the form letter goes:

 \"Dear [insert name of racing organization]:

  My name is [insert your name] and I wager approximately [insert dollar figure]at your facilities each year. In my opinion, the game has become unplayable due to detectable and undetectable performance enhancing drugs, and the failure of your organization to police this problem.

  Please be advised that I intend to place no further wagers at your facility until the problem of illegal performance enhancing drugs is eradicated.


                                                 Signed
                                 
                                                [     ]\"

About 15 months ago, a fellow I know stopped betting on races which Richard Dutrow had an entry in. It was more a matter of surrender than protest. His letter might read something like this:

  \"Dear [racing organization]:

   My name is [  ] and I wager approximately [$ ] at your facilities each year. In my opinion, the following trainers are utilizing performance enhancing drugs: [name usual suspects]. Since there is insufficient disclosure of the use of these (sometimes illegal) performance enhancing drugs, I will not be placing wagers in any races in which [name usual suspects] have horses entered.

                               
                                Signed

                                [    ]\"

Feel free to use one or both of these letters without attribution. With enough letters with large enough $ amounts, some movement may be seen one day.

Me, I\'m a recreational, not professional horseplayer. My father was a compulsive gambler (he preferred cards and baseball) and my maternal grandfather (dam sire)was a bookmaker in Brooklyn and Miami, so its pretty unlikely I\'ll be sending either of those letters any time soon. Something about breeding. Gotta get to work on Saturday\'s late P4 at Belmont.



 

[Michael D.]

hearing later in the year??? any thoughts out there?? i have supported pletcher because i thought he had never had a positive before. now it looks like he is a repeat offenfer. two positives?? let\'s get the hearing underway. if guilty, todd needs to be banned for this year\'s saratoga meet.

[HP]

Right on!  Ban him.  He\'s been dirty for years.  What takes so long to do a hearing?  Teflon Todd keeps going strong.  On the other hand, will Todd have the guts to do his thing at Saratoga with everybody watching him?  Will there be betting opportunities?  Or will anybody really be watching him?  Will the racing community just go back into its collective coma with this guy?  Tough call.  HP

[HP]

In fact, I can\'t understand why repeatedly adminstering illegal drugs to horses isn\'t \"animal abuse\" and punishable by the real authorities (i.e., jail).  There are laws against this kind of thing, and as long as the biggest thing these guys have to worry about is a suspension it\'s going to continue.  

Lock up a few of these well-heeled trainers!  Don\'t the police read the newspapers?  I really don\'t get it.  They should take the evidence from the racing boards or testing authorities or whatever and bring it straight to court.  

Reminds me of Wall St. where they \"don\'t admit to any wrongdoing\", steal $100 million, and pay a $2 million fine.  Sounds like a good deal to me!  HP