Drug-busting

[Saddlecloth]

heard this at another forum,

Mullins won today and we all missed it.

Bob Boone who is mullins main client sent one down a couple weeks ago from golden gate from trainer john martin.  Instead of transferring name of the trainer they left him in martins name, but he was trained, vetted, and saddle d by none other then jeff mullins, non 24 hour detention, and if you want to see the difference in juice mullins to jeff mullins then go watch the second today at 10/1 versus all the up the track horses he has run.

I hope the stewards catch wind to this.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Very Interesting. I\'m not up to speed on Mullin\'s clients. I suppose theres plenty of potential for this. The key of course is who gets the trainers share of the purse. Not that it couldn\'t be handed right over minus a \"handling fee\" to the trainer that juiced the horse.

I would think it would be pretty hard to miss a detention trainer walking over to another barn. I would think everyone is watching a detention trainer.


Saddlecloth wrote:

> heard this at another forum,
>
> Mullins won today and we all missed it.
>
> Bob Boone who is mullins main client sent one down a couple
> weeks ago from golden gate from trainer john martin.  Instead
> of transferring name of the trainer they left him in martins
> name, but he was trained, vetted, and saddle d by none other
> then jeff mullins, non 24 hour detention, and if you want to
> see the difference in juice mullins to jeff mullins then go
> watch the second today at 10/1 versus all the up the track
> horses he has run.
>
> I hope the stewards catch wind to this.

[kev]

Here\'s something: Why don\'t you guys, who\'s talking about this trainer is using and blah,blah,blah.....why don\'t you all come up with some ex. before the race is run?? But see this is why it wouldnt work out, cause some of you are so fixed in on this, there will be a BS story of why their horse did or didnt win. Oh it didnt win cause the heat was on him or if it wins oh looks like they got one past them. I only play on the weekends and I will look for some of these trainers and see if I find anything out of whack with the claims.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Is anybody bellyaching with \"Ah wulda won dat race if dat rat bastage trainer didn\'t use da needle...dere goes the mortagage payment\"?

I haven\'t read a single post of that nature. If you bet this game enough, you have to realize you take your chances with some trainers running lights out when they shouldn\'t. (And by lights out, I mean numbers they couldn\'t obtain about four years ago.) Right now theres a bit of correction in the works, but theres a couple of \"movers\" that seem to be running through it. At least for the time being. In other words its careful time to take 7-2 on a horse against the recent phenoms.

CtC

[kev]

My point is come with some facts......quit talking all that junk and have something to back it up with. I want to see some of these movers, and I\'m not just talking about TG numbers either. Here\'s a list of so call super trainers, which is a mover??
Richard Dutrow....Todd Pletcher....Tom Amoss....Steve Asmussen....Bobby Frankel...Martin Wolfson...Michael Pino...Jeff Mullins...Cole Norman...Wayne Catalano...I\'m sure theres more big hitters, the main ones I hear everyone talking about is Jeff, Richard, Bobby,  any of these others guys doing bad things? and why and how and show me???

[richiebee]

It seems like everyone was waiting for Dutrow to stub his toe with the coming of milkshake testing, but this was not the case. I do not want to argue that some players will always be one step ahead of their competition and the labs, because we know this is so. It will be impossible to ever bring the game back to hay, oats and water.

Dr Allday is not the leading trainer in the United States.

The trainers who tend to get the most mention on this board are Frankel, Dutrow and Pletcher. These are not bad trainers who found a vet and a vein; they are excellent horsemen and trainers, and two of them are the sons of excellent horsemen. They have owners who are willing to go deep to acquire top notch stock, and to pay top dollar to maintain that stock.

\"Nutrients\" can not make winners out of horses whose hooves are not properly maintained, whose training regimen is all wrong, who always seem to be ridden by jockeys who give them no chance to win, who are continually entered in races they can not win.

I would not be surprised if you told me that the top trainers were able to assemble the best \"teams\"-- assistant trainers, exercise riders, grooms, leg men, night watchmen, etc. It wouldn\'t surprise me if you told these trainers paid their help relatively well.

If we went back to hay oats and water, Pletcher, Dutrow and Frankel would continue to dominate racing. They would continue to be resented for their success. They would continue to win because they are top horsemen who thrive on winning. They will still have the best system for winning, the best organization. I am tired of hearing that when the playing field gets leveled [   ] (fill in the name of your favorite trainer who has been winning at a 10% clip for the last 5 years)will make a comeback.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

I\'ll grant the big three you mentioned have more in their pocket than medications. They obviously have a good base and by that I don\'t mean alkalizing agents. They didn\'t dominate four years ago before the edge was ascertained and they won\'t dominate when the edge is dissipated. When they are outted they will have to do it the old fashioned way.

One thing they all do have in common is Steve Allday and his \"titrations\".

Proof can be an elusive thing. Some of it is already documented. Some of it is still based on incedulous anecdotal evidence. If the horse fixers could be identified with the Mafia, the Feds would break this conspiracy with all the proof necessary to end it. To some extent they have entered the field with the betting parlor incident.

One thing about the Mafia. They don\'t confess. You gotta wear them down.

CtC



Post Edited (02-27-05 13:05)

[Michael D.]

i think balance is all kev is asking for, and i agree. the jones/pletcher/velazquez team will win races no matter who the vet is. all three of them are at the top of their profession. unfortunately, i have read few posts on this board praising todd pletcher, and there have been very few praising johnny velazquez (besides from the 100 or so that i have wrote). velazquez has become one of the best jocks ever to ride a horse, and while there have been thousands of posts with opinions on every aspect of the sport, nobody has posted on the sports best human star. the same applies to the stronach/frankel/castellano team. they will win big races regardless of the vet, there is no doubt about that. but how many posts have you seen on this board praising jj castellano? the guy is a rising star no doubt, and nobody cares. pletcher and frankel know how to train horses, their clients know how to breed and purchase horses, and the jocks they use are great athletes. i think the sport is moving in the right direction regarding drug testing, and if it moves a bit quicker in implementing TGJB\'s ideas, i think things will be ok. there is nothing wrong with focusing on certain vets, and there is nothing wrong with having suspicion regarding the big \"move up\" trainers. the sport has failed everyone in the area of drug testing, and everybody is now paying the price. just a little balance is all we need here; there are some talented people in the sport doing some great things.



Post Edited (02-27-05 14:33)

[Boscar Obarra]

  I don\'t follow the game nearly as close as I used to but I can tell you this. I was a huge John Velazquez fan back when the average player thought you just got Jorge\'s first name wrong.

  Big move up rider almost from day 1.  I thought he and Jorge Chavez were the best in NY for a few years running (How come I didn\'t play the $1500 ~ Derby Exacta?).

  So, there are / were a few players  going way way back , that knew he was a major talent.  The last 5 years or so was just a coming of age.

Kev and Richiebee,

I agree with you guys.

I think we all want a clean game. However,  I don\'t think it\'s a good idea to soil the reputation of successful trainers, vets, and other horseman based on suspicions. Not everyone is equally competent. So not everyone will get equal results. It has always been that way in racing. We need proof of cheating.

As much as I respect Jerry\'s intentions and work, I don\'t believe that subjective speed figures represent much in the way of proof. Not everyone agrees that speed figures are a complete and accurate way to measure performance. Even among those that consider final time very important, there is often a wide range of opinions on how fast horses are running in general or in specific races.

I think we have to seperate the tools we use as handicappers to understand horses and their connections from the tools we use to bash horsemen that have more success than seems possible without cheating.

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Pletcher found the elixer right about the time Frankel did. I\'m pretty certain Frankel\'s first horse on it was Aptitude. With Pletcher it was in the \"Left Bank\" era, though I\'m not entirely sure it was Left Bank.

Does anyone remember the goofy numbers Lefty ran? Not only did he suddenly get fast, he started carrying his speed deep. (Both typical symptoms of the affliction.) Oh yeah I know, the Lukas methodology finally sunk in and Velasquez found every hole and saved ground.

Yes I do remember Left Bank. That was freaky. :-)