Not so fast, HP

[HP]

Hi BJ. You will notice that Alydar chose not to repond to what you said (\"Beaten lengths is irrelevant to weight carried\" - bless your heart), and instead \'responded\' by rehashing his points and argument with me. So it doesn\'t really matter what you said, Aly\'s just going to repeat himself again.

Alydar is having an argument with Mall. I posted. Alydar responds and say I am \'wrong\' about weight (just a throwaway line). I respond and he says I am insulting him. And now I am \'confused\'. Of course characterizing someone as \'wrong\' or \'confused\' is NOT insulting. Even now, in response to YOUR email, he remains patronizing despite the fact that several folks (including you) have pointed out the central flaws in his argument. And he repeats it again.

Given your post (especially the \'mixing apples and oranges\' - that is EXACTLY what Aly was/is doing) and JB\'s post I can now bail out on this. Especially since there is no point in talking to a guy who is going to repeat himself, regardless of any points made, apparently by ANYONE, and then say he is offended in the bargain. This isn\'t an exchange of ideas, it\'s a one-way street.

A mark of intelligence is that you can disagree with someone and it doesn\'t affect whether you \'like\' them or not. HP

[Alydar in California]

I like bj very much. His explanation of why he thinks five pounds = one point shows that he doesn\'t understand either. Read his stuff about \"the energy required...\"

The points-time-distance relationship is at the heart of this.

I responded to his point in my last paragraph.

I lost all respect for you, HP, after the Chuckles-AIDS stuff.

The rest of your post here is dishonest and stupid. Yes. I am insulting you.

[HP]

I will not re-hash the argument. You did NOT respond to his point in the last paragraph. What you were doing (as opposed to responding) was trying to co-opt his argument, with your arm around his shoulder, while telling everyone how much you like him.

A \'response\' would have been - \"bj, you don\'t get it\" (that\'s what you\'re saying now, right? - why didn\'t you say this before?). I\'m glad you like him, and I\'m sure he is thrilled even if he doesn\'t understand you. Under these circumstances and given your method of discourse (\"welcome back bj, you don\'t get it, but I missed you\"), I can live with you calling me dishonest, stupid or anything else.

As for the Chuckles-AIDS thing, I don\'t know exactly what you are talking about, but since this must pre-date this string, if you lost all respect for me back then, I\'m wondering why you didn\'t mention that when you mentioned my name in the first place when you were going at it with Mall. You\'re a good one to talk about honesty pal. And your perspective is a hoot.

Good luck with the \'points-time-distance relationship\' thing. Maybe JB will give you a separate space on the website for your theories - Aly\'s Corner. This way we can clear the board of this rubbish once and for all. HP

[nunzio]

You know, I actually like all three of you guys (Alydar, BJ, & HP) because aside from
writing well, when it comes to handicapping,
I feel I can learn from you.  I don\'t post
much here anymore for numerous reasons,
but a big part of it is just what this thread
shows.  Degrading or be-rating someone because they don\'t understand is different from doing the same to a blow-hard who can\'t
walk the walk.  You three guys obviously can
walk the talk so ease up a bit.  

I am of the opinion that weight is NOT
a factor at races shorter than 7f and
that only imposts of 121 or better are worth
concerning ourselves with in 7f races.
As the distance increases weight is more meaningful and is even more dramatic
on a wet track (horses covered with mud
are in effect carrying more weight).  This
last point isn\'t much of an issue with speed types because they won\'t be hit with
mud until they are through, if at all.

Nunzio

[Alydar in California]

HP: bj was wrong. I was confused by his post at first because he put his sixth sentence in the wrong place. It should have been his fifth sentence. He thinks 5 pounds = one point at all distances, short and long, because the start of the race, when weight must be lugged from a standing start, takes a bigger chunk out of short races than out of long races.

 In truth, 5 pounds = one point at all distances, short and long, because 10 furlongs is twice as long as five furlongs and a point is two lengths at 10f and one length at 5f.

I do like bj. I have been saying that for a year. There are two reasons I say it: 1: It is true. 2: I have a feeling, which could VERY WELL BE WRONG, that it means a little something to him when I say it.

I have not been honest with you. You are right about that. I appreciated that you defended Noam Chomsky, and I liked some other stuff that you did a long time ago. But I am trying to be honest now.

[bj]

*** I\'m not going to add any further comment to the great weight debate . It\'s really not that important anyway - per every 5lb spread add or deduct a point , i think i get it .
     As for you two guys HP and Alydar , i think it is a shame that after all the idiots
we have exposed and ridiculed on this board - it has come to this . I\'ve read most of posts and i certainly have respect for both of you . This conduct is not representative of what you guys are about .bj

[Alydar in California]

Don\'t forget about the \"HP 5 Pound Minimum Theory.\"

.20 + .20 + .20 + .20 = 0

He should oversee the exchequer.

OK. I\'ll stop now, bj. But I sure hope JB responds to my other post.

[HP]

Okay, bj was wrong and his presentation baffled you. You like him and think he puts some premium on what you say. And you are \'trying\' to be honest with me now.

Since being honest is an effort for you, I wish you luck with this. The \'first four pounds\' thing was a joke (which most people would get based on me saying I talked to horses about it).

I\'m going to stop monopolizing space on the board, as this topic (including the revelations about your character) is exhausted.

It figures you have to beseech your big bro JB to get involved. I met plenty of guys like you in the schoolyard who fell back on this kind of thing when they were out of gas. How candy-assed can you get?

As for the \'psychological\' implications, I don\'t think I called Aly names even ONCE (before now). HP

[Alydar in California]

I\'m not going to leave it on that note.

HP wrote: \"Okay, bj was wrong and his presentation baffled you.\"

Yes. He was wrong about why five pounds = one point at all distances, and your failure to see this speaks volumes.

\"The first four pounds thing was a joke (which most people would get based on me saying I talked to horses about it).\"

See your 2-27 post. It is on a different string. You were NOT joking. You went into \"I was joking\" mode when you were called on it. By the way, your 2-27 post was the one in which you said you wouldn\'t be able to discuss this subject for a few days. It was also the one that began the vitriol: bunk, horrible sentence, etc.

\"Since being honest is an effort for you...\"

Here is how I was dishonest with you: I continued to be nice to you even though you had been circling overhead like a carrion bird, waiting for a \"mistake\" that you could pounce on. I knew exactly what you were doing, and I was trying to prevent it by being extra nice to you. But it didn\'t work. This fight was going to happen at some point. Your mistake was choosing a subject you know nothing about.

\"It figures you have to beseech your big bro JB to get involved.\" \"How candy-assed can you get?\"

Yeah. What does he know about this subject?

[HP]

For the historical record - this is what started the \'vitriol\'

HP: Hegel stays, and look for Nietzsche to get a bigger role. If you don\'t like it, don\'t read it. AND YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT WEIGHT ARE WRONG (yes, that is my CAPS LOCK added). Weight will cost more lengths at longer distances, but a length is more important at 5f than it is at 10f. (Can\'t appear to be playing favorites, you know.)

So there\'s no \'being extra nice\' or anything else. I\'m wrong! In my response, I said I do not consider weight differences of less than 5 pounds (I don\'t!), and then later on I made a joke about it. A devastating indictment you serve up there Aly.

I apologize to other posters for taking up the space (again), but as you can see by Aly\'s characterization of this whole thing -
(\"I knew exactly what you were doing...\") he has gone off the deep end.

As for JB,

ALY - \"Weight will cost more lengths at longer distances, but a length is more important at 5f than it is at 10f.\"

JB - \"1 point = about 1 length at 5f, 2 lengths at 10f, WHETHER IT IS A POINT OF ABILITY OR A POINT OF WEIGHT.\"

It\'s not everyone who can take a simple and useful idea like this and turn it into a lot of speculative crap, so take a bow.

I don\'t need any further clarification on this from Jerry, and I would be (mildly) shocked if he posted anything on your \'more important length\' ideas. Jerry\'s a busy man, and there aren\'t enough hours in a day to address your goulash (though I\'ve tried). He certainly hasn\'t said anything to support your ideas so far, but that doesn\'t mean you won\'t try to twist something around to suit your argument.

Your gyrations with bj\'s emails are hilarious (there was nothing in them to support your point of view either). You can have the last word (and I\'m sure you will!). Good luck with your space/time/distance/important-length mishegas. You might be better off sticking with your psedo-intellectual postings that have nothing to do with racing. HP

[TGJB]

Will both of you guys please knock it off?

[HP]

Hey Jerry, nothing from nothing, but I\'ve been trying to knock it off for days.

\"The rest of your post here is dishonest and stupid. Yes. I am insulting you.\" -- Alydar

You could have said something then, but you chose not to. I guess I should let this pass, huh? I\'m sure if someone said this to you, you would take the high road. I agree with something an earlier poster raised - he would never say something like this to my face. He is a creature of the email era. The guy\'s a jackass and you have stuck up for him more than once. And given the fact that you have stuck up for him before, me ripping him (with ample provocation) rates equal time.

If you want to play referee, get it right. You have my word I will not respond to him anymore regardless of what he says. HP

[Alydar in California]

HP: You ordered me to stop talking about Hegel and to stop making intellectual references. What you quoted was my reply to your order, which you gave right after I praised you.

JB\'s quote: \"A point = about one length at 5f and two lengths at 10f.\" In other words, weight costs more lengths at longer distances, which is what I had written: \"Weight will cost more lengths at longer distances.\"

The rest of JB\'s quote: \"WHETHER IT IS A POINT OF WEIGHT OR A POINT OF ABILITY.\" In other words, ignoring four pounds of weight, as you suggest doing, is the same thing as ignoring three quarters of a point of ability (actually .80), which equals about a length and one half at a mile and one quarter.

JB: You could have stopped this any time you wanted to. You chose to stop it now.

[Alydar in California]

HP: 1: Your insults PRECEDED mine. 2: Tough guy rhetoric from 3OOO miles away is unbecoming.

[TGJB]

For the record, I was in Florida for 3 days- I tried to stop it before I left.
Every disagreement does not rate nuclear response. The importance of being right varies in proportion with the importance of the subject, fellas.