"Marketing Strategy"

[TGJB]

Marc, you have outdone yourself this time with your implication on the Ragozin board that contest winner Michelson does not really use our data, and was not really using it for the contest.

For the record-- he bought around 20 or so sets on-line last year, which fits with his comments in your publication that he is \"an occasional weekend player\". He DEFINITELY had TG for the contest-- he downloaded for the first day, took hardcopy for the second.

As you know, we offered our customers free sheets in exchange for their talking us up if they did well-- THE ONLY THING ANY CONTEST COMPETITOR HAS EVER GOTTEN FROM US IS FREE TG DATA. Even a genius like you should be able to figure out that if they don\'t use the damn data the deal doesn\'t do them much good. All six of the TG customers who finished in the top 20 took us up on the deal and used TG for the contest. Overall, there were 28 contestants who had on-line accounts. Of those, two said they no longer use our data, and another just uses the RBR (he finished top 5, by the way, and I didn\'t count him in the 6). Another 3 do use the data, but turned down the deal for whatever reason (including Kent Meyer, last year\'s winner), a fourth said he turned it down because he switched to Ragozin, then took $60 worth of our data on-line for the first contest day. Go figure.

Anyway, if you were at the banquet, and I\'m sure you were, you saw Michelson thank us from the podium, along with BRIS and DRF. So you have crossed the line, Marc-- again. And this time, as an advertiser in your paper and just as someone who doesn\'t like having crap thrown at him-- in this case by someone who uses DRF for credibility in his post-- I\'m going to have a word with your employer.

A quick word on BRIS-- don\'t know if it\'s true, but my understanding is that to play in one of their on-line contests you had to open an account, even if you didn\'t use their data. If so, that explains how they were able to list so many contest players as account holders-- guys who play contests coincide neatly with guys who play contests. No idea whether Michelson or others use their data or not. Not the same here-- the only reason anyone ever opens an account is because they want our data.

Leaving for the day now, I\'ll have much more on the contest later. There are some really interesting ways to cut the numbers up so they tell quite a bit.

[Frank]

Jerry,

You had me scrambling to The Sheets board to see what the hell Marc wrote. He is my friend and I admit with appropriate shame that I love soap operas. Even internet ones. Imagine my disappoinment when I read his posts. I was looking for inflammatory. Maybe a little controversy. What did I find? Nothing exciting. A little like today\'s football. What a letdown.

Frank

[Chuckles_the_Clown2]

Frank wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> You had me scrambling to The Sheets board to see what the hell
> Marc wrote... What did I find?
> Nothing exciting. A little like today\'s football. What a
> letdown.
>
> Frank

I can\'t read the Rag board. Theres no reason to. Do I understand this accurately? A DRF employee made a RagBoard post that implied a contest winner said he used TFigs when actually he did not? Thats an implication of fraud at the very least and if I\'ve ascertained the rest accurately thats a serious charge in the circumstances, even if outside his scope of employment and under a pseudonym.

TGJB wrote:

> Marc, you have outdone yourself this time with your implication
> on the Ragozin board that contest winner Michelson does not
> really use our data, and was not really using it for the
> contest.

[beyerguy]

Sorry Jerry, there is no meat on this bone.  I would tend to think he is talking about BRIS if forced to decide, but what he says is generally true, and since he didn\'t name anyone specific, or even impy TG, I don\'t see any problem.

[Frank]

Good of you to comment Mr. Clown without reading the post. But there was no implication. Nor did he use a pseudonym. But why let facts get in the way of one of your posts.

Frank

[Mall]

I have so many security features in place on my computer since the last identity theft incident that I can\'t access the Sheets Bd, so I don\'t know what was said either, but this is one issue I can put to bed based on 1st hand knowledge. On day 1, derby1592 & I sat together in the area reserved for the top 10 finishers. Big mistake on my part picking those seats, as it turned out, since they were directly under some very bright & very hot television lights, but more on that later. Unfortunately, we both had to move on day 2, so I went down a little early to see if we could get seats together, since spending two days handicapping with derby1592 was the highlight of my contest. derby1592 is an even better dopester than I imagined, which is saying something.

In any event, the only way we could sit together was if I convinced the guy who was assigned the seat next to mine to move. The guy in question turned out to be Jamie\'s father. The 1st thing he told me was that his son was doing pretty well in the contest, & that he had put in a request to sit next to him, because they went to contests together & always compared notes. Pretty neat, I remember thinking, as there is very little I would like more than to do the same thing with my son. Also, you don\'t have to be a horseplayer to understand the attraction of something like that, which is one among a number of reasons that Jamie is the perfect winner for the 1st televised contest. He went on to explain that the way they worked was that independently Jamie doped things out using Thorograph & that he used nothing but the Form, & then they would get together & compare notes. I told him I would be interested in meeting Jamie & I did about a minute or so later. He definitely uses Thorograph & is a fairly regular reader of the Bd, about which he had some interesting comments. Not long after that derby1592 arrived, & I told him the story when I introduced him to Jim Sr. It turned out that Jamie was a member of Chris\' YouBet team, which had a chance to win the team title, so Chris introduced himself to Jamie as well.

So derby1592 was able to sit next to me on my right & as luck would have it, the person assigned to sit on my left was none other than Steve Wolfson, last yr\'s winner & the victim of an unfounded attack on his character on the Sheets Bd. After exchanging pleasantries, I asked him if he was aware of what was said about him after he won last yr. He was, & couldn\'t understand why anyone would launch such an attack, given that what he said about using TGraph was true. I didn\'t have to ask the 2nd thing I was curious about, namely whether he ever got the apology Robes still owes him. I can attest to the fact that he uses a lot of handicapping tools, which are on two separate computers, one large, one small. In any event, I mentioned that at least one person stuck up for him & his family at the time. He paused, smiled, & extended his hand again, saying, \"You\'re Mall, aren\'t you?\" I then told him the story about Jamie & his father, & he responded that he knew them both pretty well, evidenced by the fact that he was in Jamie\'s wedding. Hopefully, the telecast will make something out of all this, as excellent handicappers who also happen to be young, articulate & good looking maybe, just maybe, might give this sport the shot in the arm it so badly needs.

[mandown]

Beyerguy, Frank

\'Marketing Straegy\' was a term used in one of the recent spats Jerry had with the Rags Board. Marc\'s use of it on the Rags Board, just after Jerry had posted here claiming the winner of the NTRA/DRF contest as a TG user, was surely more than mere coincidence.

I normally counsel Jerry to stay clear of these things but I though Marc\'s post classless, and his use of the DRF unbelievably stupid and naive.

Frank, if Marc\'s your friend you should take him aside and tell him to get a little maturity. It\'s great that he\'s so pleased he works for the DRF but we don\'t need reminiding every time he posts. And if you\'re going to be partisan I\'ve always found your employer prefers it if you leave them out of it.

You should also tell him he\'s not the only genius in the world. Anyone with an iota of common sense would have realised that Jerry had nothing to gain by claiming somebody as a TG user and having it immediately disproved. Marc tried to take a cheap shot and would seem to have missed rather comprehensively.

These p***ing matches do no one any good but, for once, I can\'t blame Jerry that much for seeing red, though I do wish he had toned down the threats.

George

[Frank]

George,

Let\'s be perfectly clear. I have no axe to grind here. I use TG data and a whole lot of it. I also consider Marc to be a good friend. The only reason I posted was I thought Jerry was being somewhat paranoid in his response to Marc. You obviously support his view. Now I think you\'re both a little paranoid here. I reread Marc\'s post and still don\'t see anything TG specific in what he wrote or implied. \'Marketing Strategy\' is hardly a proprietary TG term. If that\'s your best evidence of Marc\'s intentions I think you should let this fight pass. And consider that you got to personally attack Marc in your post as a bonus to yourself.

Frank

[Silver Charm]

You wrote,

>We do not scour the list of finalists and then compare that list to anyone who ever made a purchase from us.

But you do do that when taking credit for X-so many trainers, jockey\'s or agents who were successful last year, who have used your product in the past, correct? Or a least that\'s what Len said recently when he took credit for their success.

You don\'t really know if they purchased your product on the days they won, just that they have used your product in the past and present, correct?

Also, Mall usually the terms straight and  dope don\'t fit in the same sentence together but somehow you did it. Now I know why my last email I sent to you got a return to sender, but that\'s not the first time I have had that happen to me, that one was straight mail. Please post more about what went on at the contest, even if you didn\'t win the experience is something that \"will last a lifetime\"

[mandown]

Frank,

I don\'t think I\'m paranoid but please tell me why are you out to get me?

OK, let\'s agree Marc wasn\'t singling out TG. So he obviously wanted (a) to piss off all the DRF\'s handicapping advertisers or (b) felt the readers of the Sheets\' board were so gullible they needed a piece of simplistic advice.

Come on, let\'s be realistic here.

I admire your loyalty but it\'s mis-placed.

George

[Frank]

\'I don\'t think I\'m paranoid but please tell me why are you out to get me?\'

Good line, George. I do feel like a bit of a fool laughing out loud in a quiet room with no one else around.

Or (c) just an observation that he found interesting that he wanted to share with other horseplayers.

Take care.

Frank

I haven\'t read the controversial Ragozin post, but I am curious if the Ragozin sheets and other information sellers were equally reprsented at the contest.

[TGJB]

Our rep told me that he saw three guys with Ragozin there. Keep in mind that this was a contest you had to qualify for-- you couldn\'t buy your way in. That so many of our guys qualified was probably more significant than winning it, in reality.

Regarding Eric\'s snide attempt to make us look bad on the other board, there ARE no ancient acounts on this site-- it only started in 97, and the vast majority of accounts were opened since 2000. And as I said, as far as I know the only two guys who no longer use the data turned down the deal.

[TGJB]

Mall-- very nice post, sounds like you had a good time, and I agree that Jamie was the kind of winner that is good for racing (to say nothing of TG). Chris tells me that you were so convinced that would be a good thing, you went into the tank in the contest. You ARE a nice guy.

[Mall]

...a certain amount of loathing, self-loathing to be exact, based on some very poor handicapping & decision-making by yours truly. Unlike me, on day 1 derby1592 would have been right in the middle of things if he had used back his back to back 22-1 & 40-1 winners in the contest. He cashed on both, then followed that up with a 12-1 winner which he bet on & used in the contest. In the end, we both decided to count it as a learning experience, & plan on doing better if we\'re lucky enough to qualify next yr. Thanks very much for the free sheets, & Chris & I both enjoyed meeting your man on the scene, who I understand is staying over for the $1 million World Series. This is one time where I don\'t have to say wait until next yr, since that contest starts Thurs, & I\'m reasonably confident that OPM is going to take down the top prize.