Whitney/Dandy Figs

[Lucy]

ok, not trying to be a ballbuster, but could you have dropped a couple names, or do I have to go look all that up?
I\'m not rainman, you know.

and what are you basing this \'strong\' qualification on?

also, am I to understand that basically every crop in the last 17 years has been \'weak\'?

[jbelfior]

Cozzene--

You\'re kidding, right???

LH couldn\'t get a mile and a quarter against stakes competition if you tied him to a truck.



Good Luck,
Joe B.

[JJP]

Lucy-

This is off the top of my head so I may miss some:
1984- Swale, Gate Dancer, Vanlandingham, Time for a Change, Devils Bag, Dr. Carter, Track Barron, Precisionist

1985- Spend a Buck, Chiefs Crown, Tanks Prospect, Proud Truth, Creme Fraiche, Smile

1987- Alysheba, Bet Twice, Lost Code, Java Gold, Cryptoclearance, Candi\'s Gold, Gone West, Gulch

1997- Silver Charm, Cpt Bodgitt, Free House, Touch Gold, Deputy Commander

I would say most years are average.  I would say the years Lil E Tee and Sea Hero won were probably the worst.  Of course, its just my opinion but I don\'t think I\'m the only one who feels that way.

Purge 4 for 4 in races w/no Smarty Jones and 0 for 3 against him.  I think that sums up the rest of the 2004 3YOs.

[beyerguy]

1986 was pretty good as well.  Ferdinand, Snow Chief, Broad Brush, Groovy, and Danzig Connection come to mind.

[derby1592]

I would say 1989 with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer would have to be considered a pretty good crop given that they finished 1/2 in the BC classic that year.

I think we tend to underrate the crops each year and it gets worse every year because, as someone noted earlier, we have a lot more horses cranked up to run big numbers as 2yos and early 3 and those precocious types seldom improve or even last until the fall or as 4yos.

If you don\'t get them cranked up early, you have almost no chance to win stakes. The best example is Zito. He used to have stakes winners at 2 and early 3 using \"traditional\" training methods. In the last 5 years, he was getting his clock cleaned in such races. Last summer he openly stated he was going to start really cranking them up at 2 and early 3 and sure enough he was back in the limelight.

The game has changed for better or worse as does everything else...

Chris

[jbelfior]

I would say 1987 stood out more than the others.

GULCH winning the Met Mile, JAVA GOLD taking the Whitney, ALYSHEBA running his eyeballs out against the older FERDINAND in the BC CLASSIC.


Good Luck,
Joe B.

[cozzene]

Joe B

We will see in the Travers.  When he wins I will expect an apology.  

Lion Heart is the best of his crop.

His circumstances were compromised by innefective rides.

Thank You

Cozzene

[JJP]

Agree 1986 was pretty strong also.  Don\'t forget Rare Brick, who retired 6 for 6.  I think Storm Cat would\'ve been a 3YO that year but I don\'t remember him running as a 3YO.

As for 1989, it was very top heavy.  I\'m trying to remember the others; Clever Trevor? Awe Inspiring?  That crop had 2 stars but wasn\'t very deep.

1994 might\'ve been a decent year also.  Concern won the BC Classic, and Holy Bull was in that crop but neither won a TC race that year as Tabasco Cat and Go for Gin won those.

I think Lion Heart was certainly one of the best of his crop at Derby time, but I am less convinced than most that his recent efforts are all that good in light of the passage of time since spring. IMO, he hasn\'t made much if any progress. He may even be worse than his springtime peak so far.

Some of his spring efforts were a lot better than they looked not only because of the ground loss, but because of the amount of effort on the first turn to get and sustain position while so wide.

I don\'t think his Haskell prep effort was up to that standard considering he was life and death to beat a 2nd stringer while overcoming a similarly tough trip.  

I am willing to grant that he may not have been 100% that day. Even his trainer said it was a prep. So he was very likely to move forward off that mediocre effort.

As far as I am concerned, in the Haskell he had one of his easiest trips ever and he was still not drawing off to a big win against a field that was only two deep. The other of course was RHT who was horrible. You can\'t draw ANY conclusions about figures or performance based on RHT\'s effort there. (by the way I agree with the consensus that RHT was an underlay at 4-5)

One thing is certain, 10 furlongs is not Liion Heart\'s best distance.

So if I am right about his recent performances (that he hasn\'t made any progress), he is a definite bet against in the Travers if anyone that shows up looks like a legitimate improving 3YO that wants 10 furlongs.

[JJP]

Its too bad Medallist isn\'t likely to go in the Travers.  What would be the over/under for beaten lengths for Lion Heart if Medallist went?  I\'d say 15.

[jbelfior]

Cozzene--

I, in turn, expect one if I\'m right.

the best of his crop? send me some of what you\'re smoking.




Good Luck,
Joe B.

[Silver Charm]

Remember who the initial Superhorse of 86 was before he even started Mogambo....oops lost his maiden race to 20-1 longshot Ogygian who then he became the Superhorse. The Nerud clan actually tried to put a syndication value of $100M on him.

Storm Cat ran once at Maryland for Shephard as a 3YO. WT Young didn\'t even nominated him for the Derby.

Remember Walter #@%*&!# Kelly and John\'s &*%^&# Treasure.


As far as 1987 goes as an added spice to that crew was the filly division which included Personal Ensign and Very Subtle. They won a race or two.

[MO]

Ditto (to 1987 crop).



Post Edited (08-13-04 14:39)

[Catalin]

Silver:

You have a very good memory.  Tartan actually had two of the \"fastest horses ever\" that year.

Roy, another Nerud runner was bet down to 3-5 for his debut apparently becuase the clockers had confused him with Ogygian (who had worked significantly faster).  I believe Ogygian actually paid a price first out after Roy lost his first two starts.

[4singles2all]

Add the undefeated Meadowlake to that same crop (3 yo in 1986)