Big Money Mike

[shanahan]

Frank, well said.  Like a few others, I knew MIke had a career path in NY, but was totally unaware that he got run out of there and that Team Shug dropped him.  Thank you for posting that.  My first thought was P-Dub response is coming, and was not disappointed.

For the last few years, wehn he takes off, I take notice.  Drefong being the lone exception I can remember.  

After a nice Friday, and what may have been a record payday Saturday, I let my heart tell to single Chrome - no chance a 3 YO posts that kind of fig again.  

I agree with others that the ride on Reel was terrific, and unless the seminar reminds me that Found has run too often in last several weeks I\'d of singled Found.  Killer for me was OM not getting up, and then not checking to see I didn\'t have A Lot in 3rd spot for the super....still, no complaints, just a lament on what might have been.  Sounds like everyone did pretty well, so enjoy!

[TempletonPeck]

The first clause of the first sentence of my post: \"Without taking any position on whether Wide Mike is a bum or a legend,\" did you miss that P-Dub?

Some facts, rather than bullshit:

Before this weekend, top 10 money earners of B.C. jockeys (from http://stats.breederscup.com/) were, in order (age in parentheses): Mike Smith (51), Pat Day (63), John Velazquez (44), Jerry Bailey (59), Garrett Gomez (44), Frankie Dettori (45), Gary Stevens (53), Chris McCarron (61), Corey Nakatani (46), and Javier Castellano (39).

So let\'s get the important things out of the way first: I\'m obviously right.

Now, if you actually find yourself in an argument with someone about Mike\'s Breeders\' Cup talents, you\'ll want to know that while Mike has started more BC races than most (before this weekend 118, behind only Velazquez\' 149, and narrowly ahead of Day with 117, and Stevens with 115), he also wins more than anyone: 22 winners from those 118 starts (compare with Velazquez\' 13, Day\'s 12, and Stevens\' 10).

[P-Dub]

TempletonPeck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The first clause of the first sentence of my post:
> \"Without taking any position on whether Wide Mike
> is a bum or a legend,\" did you miss that P-Dub?
>
> Some facts, rather than bullshit:
>
> Before this weekend, top 10 money earners of B.C.
> jockeys (from http://stats.breederscup.com/) were,
> in order (age in parentheses): Mike Smith (51),
> Pat Day (63), John Velazquez (44), Jerry Bailey
> (59), Garrett Gomez (44), Frankie Dettori (45),
> Gary Stevens (53), Chris McCarron (61), Corey
> Nakatani (46), and Javier Castellano (39).
>
> So let\'s get the important things out of the way
> first: I\'m obviously right.
>
> Now, if you actually find yourself in an argument
> with someone about Mike\'s Breeders\' Cup talents,
> you\'ll want to know that while Mike has started
> more BC races than most (before this weekend 118,
> behind only Velazquez\' 149, and narrowly ahead of
> Day with 117, and Stevens with 115), he also wins
> more than anyone: 22 winners from those 118 starts
> (compare with Velazquez\' 13, Day\'s 12, and
> Stevens\' 10).

Well no sh!t. You obviously have to have raced enough to qualify.

Obviously right.  And if I told you water was wet, I would obviously be right too. I wouldn\'t brag about it tho.

And as I stated, he hits the board a lot, wins with horses other than Cadillacs, and wins more than others,

Nothing you just said is enlightening. Bad day at the windows? You seem a bit touchy.

I was very clear with what I said, and I didn\'t miss a thing regarding your post.

[P-Dub]

shanahan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Frank, well said.  Like a few others, I knew MIke
> had a career path in NY, but was totally unaware
> that he got run out of there and that Team Shug
> dropped him.  Thank you for posting that.  My
> first thought was P-Dub response is coming, and
> was not disappointed.
>
> For the last few years, wehn he takes off, I take
> notice.  Drefong being the lone exception I can
> remember.  
>
> After a nice Friday, and what may have been a
> record payday Saturday, I let my heart tell to
> single Chrome - no chance a 3 YO posts that kind
> of fig again.  
>
> I agree with others that the ride on Reel was
> terrific, and unless the seminar reminds me that
> Found has run too often in last several weeks I\'d
> of singled Found.  Killer for me was OM not
> getting up, and then not checking to see I didn\'t
> have A Lot in 3rd spot for the super....still, no
> complaints, just a lament on what might have been.
>  Sounds like everyone did pretty well, so enjoy!

Waiting for my flight, so time on my hands.  Glad I didn\'t disappoint you.

I also needed Om for Rolling picks and the Win. Had Queen\'s Trust and Drefong to win, and needed Om to complete a nice P3. Just short.

I keyed HR and Flintshire 1/2 and tried to get a price underneath. Found killed all of it. Win ticket small consolation.

Didn\'t have Arrogate which cost me the P3 and P4. Shame on me, leaving Mike Smith off my ticket.

[Molesap]

While certainly age is a factor in the number of mounts Smith has ridden in the Breeder's Cup, his win percentage is just so much better than most other jockeys with a number of mounts. Going into this Breeder's Cup he was 22/118 and adding this year he is now 25/126. That is 1 out of every 5 mounts winning for 20%. Here is a comparison for other jockeys. I have not bothered to add in this year's result yet and for some, they will improve since they nabbed a winner. So as on November 1, 2016 here are some jockey numbers for the Breeder's Cup.

Geroux, F – 50% (3/6)
Moore, R – 19% (8/42)
Gomes, G – 16% (13/83)
Bailey, J – 15% (15/102)
Dettori, L – 13% (11/88)
Day, P – 10% (12/117)
Leparous, J – 9% (6/66)
Velazquez, J – 9% (13/149)
Stevens, G – 9% (10/115)
Castellano, J – 7% (6/81)

[Tavasco]

FrankD wrote:

All \"Wide Mike\" did the past 2 days was have 8 BC mounts, 3 wins, 3 seconds and a third not just on the even money big horses either. Finest City $19.40, Tamarkuz $25.80 and a 2nd on Coasted at 23/1.

Some might wonder what BMM did on his 8th mount? The 3rd race Saturday 6 1/2f turf sprint down the hill. He was on the number one horse Wild At Heart for trainer Richard Mandella. A first time turf runner. Ten to one on the morning line and maybe a couple more at post time.

I know because it didn\'t take me until the classic to realize he was having a career weekend. The ride was note worthy as he rode the rail only to be blocked by his stablemate, #5 Juno  (if memory serves) while launching what looked to my hopeful eyes as a move that would carry him into the trifecta. One can only speculate.

I was so impressed that I messaged a buddy suggesting the horse be added to his to watch list. I\'m expecting a follow-up turf try. Not a bad ride and for just a little good luck may have been another of his showcase efforts.

[metroj]

TempletonPeck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Before this weekend, top 10 money earners of B.C.
> jockeys (from http://stats.breederscup.com/) were,
> in order (age in parentheses): Mike Smith (51),
> Pat Day (63), John Velazquez (44), Jerry Bailey
> (59), Garrett Gomez (44), Frankie Dettori (45),
> Gary Stevens (53), Chris McCarron (61), Corey
> Nakatani (46), and Javier Castellano (39).
>
> So let\'s get the important things out of the way
> first: I\'m obviously right.
>
> Now, if you actually find yourself in an argument
> with someone about Mike\'s Breeders\' Cup talents,
> you\'ll want to know that while Mike has started
> more BC races than most (before this weekend 118,
> behind only Velazquez\' 149, and narrowly ahead of
> Day with 117, and Stevens with 115), he also wins
> more than anyone: 22 winners from those 118 starts
> (compare with Velazquez\' 13, Day\'s 12, and
> Stevens\' 10).

Smith has a few other things working for him in regards to his BC resume, in addition to his riding abilities of course.

1) He\'s been riding pretty much since the inception of the Breeders Cup although his success didn\'t start until the early 90\'s.

2) He\'s kept his career going while some of the best of his generation... Day, Bailey, and McCarron have hung up their tacks.

3) Breeders Cup going to two days and adding races like the Turf Sprint, Juvy Turfs, F&M Sprint, Dirt Mile and even the Marathon have helped add to his total.

[jimbo66]

Lots of support for Mike Smith on this thread.  And a nice starting point from Frank D. to launch it.  (Frank - good you didn\'t post your Mike Smith comments after the American Gal ride earlier in the card.....)

Mike Smith is a money jockey and a gentleman.  Seems like a great guy.

But have to say, i would disagree about the ride on Arrogate.  if i were to credit the victory by Arrogate, I would say horse first, then trainer and then jockey.  

As somebody who needed Chrome for a decent score, I have to say i was thrilled with Mike Smith\'s ride about 3/4 of the way through the race.  3 wide first turn, much further back off a fair pace than I expected him to be, letting Chrome have his way up front.  The fact that the horse could give Chrome that kind of an edge, then still run Chrome down, going 1 1/4 miles off an almost 3 month layoff, was incredulous to me.  i was counting my money 3/4 of the way through the race.  Sure, the move to the inside on the second turn was nice as was the switch of the stick to the right hand, but that was all horse to me.  And the trainer having this young horse ready to fire HUGE again off that layoff, was something else too.  Spent a lot of time explaining to some buddies who only gamble big days, who wanted to bet Arrogate because Defrong fired big off that layoff, that it is a big difference sprinting off the layoff versus going 1 1/4.  

Now, you could argue part of Mike Smith\'s brilliance is knowing when you are on a Cadillac and not making mistakes and steering clear of trouble (like on Zenyatta and now Arrogate).  I could agree.

Personally, I thought the rides he gave Finest City and Tamarkuz were much better examples of great rides, as opposed to the Arrogate ride.  

I want to see more of Arrogate.  Hopefully he comes back next year.  Feels like he could be one of the best we have seen the last 20 years.  Yes, I know hyperbole after a win is dangerous, but he looks that good.  That big stride late, coming home in about 24 again at the end of a 1 1/4 race.  Visually awesome.  I don\'t think Chrome was slowing down much.  Just got run down.  as much as in hindsight I would like to have seen Victor take off on the turn instead of looking backwards maybe 4 times, I won\'t blame Victor.  Feels like Arrogate was just too good.  (might have been closer for sure if Victor opens up but don\'t think he was beating Arrogate)

A possible rematch in January?   Hmmm...

[richiebee]

As usual a well thought out post.

As to Mike Smith, agree that with regards to the Classic winner, horse and
trainer should be in the spotlight. With regards to Cal Chrome, my OPINION is
that sometimes horses (and jockeys) coasting along on an easy lead sometimes
can lose focus and I do not know if this is what happened in the Classic.

My OPINION is that Mike Smith\'s best ride on the weekend may have been on
Songbird (a bit contrarian, I guess). And a very risky GUESS by Collmus calling
Beholder the winner... he would have been roasted had he called it incorrectly.

Regarding Smith aboard Tamarkuz, seems like he benefited from the
Dortmund/Unhappy speed duel and the fact that (my OPINION) Gun Runner has
turned into a bit of a \"hanger\" (check out GR\'s finish in the PA. Derby).
Ditto with regards to Finest City, who benefited from the fact that Rosario
couldn\'t get Wavell Ave to change leads late (Wavell also has a bit of \"hang\" in her lately, no?).

Bottom line on \"Iron\" Mike: As Frank documented so well, Smith has weathered
the highs and lows, the devastating injuries. He has mostly avoided the
personal demons which have pursued talented riders such as Kent Desormeaux and
PVal (and many others) throughout their careers. He has kept himself in
tremendous physical condition, which allows him to compete against riders half
his age. Of the greats I have watched, he belongs up near the top with A.
Cordero and L. Pincay.

[FrankD.]

Richie,Richie, Richie,

The 2 names you just mentioned Cordero and Pincay are included in everyone\'s all time top 5. You can add Arcaro & Shoe, my personal 5th would be Bill Hartack.

Mike Smith, Bailey, Day and go argue for a week to fill out the rest of the top 10 in whatever order you want to. It\'s subjunctive, different eras, purse money etc... Put a gun to my head for the last 2 I\'d go Kent D., Baeza & McCarron for the last spot? This should start some fun

Near the top is fine but Big Money Mike ain\'t on MT Rushmore!!!!!
It says a lot about the era that he and Gary Stevens are riding in the last few years that through their late 40 and early 50\'s they are still getting top mounts?

Frank D.

[Flighted Iron]

What about European riders? This could become a quasi ryder cup.

[richiebee]

Frank:

Hard for me to opine about Hartack and Arcaro, well before my time. And, as I
said in my post, I was speaking about \"riders I have watched\".

You had the advantage of spending time in California, most of what I saw of the
Shoe was when he shipped into Belmont when big money was on the line, though I
must say that Shoe\'s Derby trip on Ferdinand (1986) and his win on Forego in
the slop at Belmont (1976 Marlboro Cup) may have been the two most memorable
rides I have ever seen. One of the greatest ironies in all of sports is that
Shoemaker, for all of the thoroughbred mounts he risked his life on, ended up
paralyzed after rolling over his Ford truck after drinking two glasses of wine.

PVal and Chris Antley in a separate \"what could have been\" kind of category.
Both had mad talent, and I do not think you would argue with that.

My opinion is that Stevens\' and Smith\'s longevity has a lot to do with
advances in human medicine and human training techniques which were not
available to riders of previous generations.

[FrankD.]

My apologies Bee,

I forgot you\'re not that much older than me
No arguements with P Val or The Ant both had all the tools to go along with the demons.

You must have missed the Uncle Bill story about his old friend Vince DeGregory considered the jock agent of jock agents he had the books of Shoe, Pincay, Cordero, Jorge Velasquez, Jacinto Vasquez, Alex Solis & Chris Mccarron all with plaques on Union Ave, along with Victor Espinosa, Joel Roasrio, Darrel McHargue and a couple of other jocks named Art Sherman (yes CC trainer) and Con scamp Errico. He said Antley had more talent than any other rider he had ever seen.
His story of Vince getting an unknown Angel Cordero an audition for Hirsch Jacobs is a classic as well.

Ask Uncle Bill to tell you about the winter at Hialeah when he shared an apartment with Vince and Bobby Frankel!!!

Frank D.

[jimbo66]

From a \"younger\" guy, give me Cordero, Pincay, McCarron, Ramon Dominguez and Desormeaux as my 5.

As for the age discussion between Frank D and RichieBee, you guys are both father figures for me.  in the same way TGAB is a grandfather figure for me....

Jim

[FrankD.]

So much for trying to give Richie and the \" young gun\" a history lesson.

The parameters are set:
Who are the top 5 jocks that you have seen and or wagered on in your lifetime?
Where is Miff, we might have got Issac Murphy.

Frank D\'s top 5 not in any particular order. Shoe, Pincay, Cordero, Kent D. & Pat Day.