Hello Im new and ready to learn...

[Point_Given_Gal]

Hello,  I would like to thank Mr. Sheets for informing me about this wonderful product.  Is there a place on this site where I can learn how to read the Thorograph Sheets?

I know that I look for horses with low numbers.  Is there a sample here anywhere?

I dsaid in my title that I am ready to learn but I am also in a hurry to learn and understand.  

Thanks everyone especially Mr. Bdhsheets.

[goofything]

Yes, click on the Red \"Introduction\" link in the left hand column of everypage. This will take you to a lot of very useful information about using the sheets (audio web seminar, etc). Then, go to the \"Red Board Room\" link. This link gives you all of the previous day\'s sheets. Download these and practice (go to www.equibase.com-->charts link for results after you analyze).

Now, this next part will be unpopular, but the Ragozzin site also has a lot of useful information about using their sheets. They detail a lot of different patterns to look for. Spotting the patterns is the key to using sheets and seems to work well with both the Ragozzin sheets and the Thorograph sheets. Thorograph\'s sheets are easier to read because they\'ve been laid out much nicer. They are also more user friendly because you can download them. Also, they give you infinite amount of information to learn to use the sheet (i.e. the Red Board Room). Plush, Thorograph is a better price. [I\'ve been successful using both sheets, so I would say the numbers are both very good].

But, if you go to www.thesheets.com, you can buy some audio seminar tapes from the Ragozzin guys (there\'s about 18 of them or so). These are very useful (although very poor quality) for learning to use sheets. Also, Len Ragozzin\'s book, \"The Odds Must Be Crazy\" is a good book for learning how the sheets were developed, what the numbers actually represent and how to spot some patterns.

Hope all of this helps. I would use both sites for information because both have some useful stuff to offer. Also, use these message boards (both sites have message boards) to ask questions and discuss patterns, horses, etc. I think this site is easier for discussing particulars of horses, because everyone can download the sheet and see what you are talking about (assuming the question is posted the day after the race and it\'s still available in the Red Board Room).

Good luck.

[TGJB]

I don\'t have a problem with the idea that the theoretical discussions on the Ragozin site can be useful- as I have stated many times, I have no respect for the data they provide, and I\'ve gone into great detail as to why, both with discussions of figure making methodology and examples in advance, which have proved out to a very high degree.
  But while the current handicapping discussions on the site are okay, I question the value of tapes made many years ago. I haven\'t heard them, but patterns have changed a lot over the years.
  As for the book, take what\'s in it with more than a grain of salt. I was there for a lot of it, and Connie Merjos, Ragozin\'s N.Y. trackman for 25 years, the guy who showed Ragozin run-ups and live wind and ground, was so upset when he read it he told me he couldn\'t sleep for two days. It\'s just a bit self serving.

[Point_Given_Gal]

I have been reading the sample sheets.  So would you recommend looking for the horses with the lowest numbers?

Do you look for patterns like steadily improving numbers (ie numbers getting lower and lower)?

Thanks for you help.

[goofything]

Michelle,

You really should start by listening to the \"Audio Seminar\" and \"Multimedia Seminar\" under the \"Introduction\" link on this web site. Click on the Intro link, then on the right hand side of the page there are a few links to some learning tools. That\'s a great place to start.

Unfortunately, using the sheets isn\'t as easy as looking at the 8 horses in the race and saying the #3 horse had the lowest number in one of his races, so he\'ll win; or his numbers have always gone down so he\'ll win. If you look at the sheets of some horses, you\'ll see that the numbers move around, sometimes up and sometimes down. So, a lot of sheet user use the sheets for \"conditioning handicapping\". That is, looking at the patterns on the sheets and trying to figure out if the horse is ready to run a better race today or a worse race--sometimes they are tired and although one may be faster, it might not be TODAY. That\'s what the patterns help determine.

It takes a lot of time and practice to really understand how to use the sheets effectively. Thorograph is excellent because they offer the resources to allow you to practice using yesterdays sheets. Analyze races and then check the results. Once you are comfortable, you can then purchase current sheets and use them at the track.

The area that I think Thorograph is lacking is in the area of resources that teach the sheets. That is why I recommended earlier that you look into the tapes from the Ragozzin site. I don\'t want to argue about the quality of numbers that each company produces, but I personally found a tremendous amount of value listening to the Ragozzin tapes that I have used to help me better analyze the Thorograph sheets.

It may be true that some patterns from years ago may not work as well anymore, but the tapes give you a very good foundation of things to look for and think about. Then, practice looking for those patterns and see if they still work. Many of them do. The tapes give you a good handle on when a horse may Bounce (i.e. run a much worse race) or may explode (i.e. run his best race ever). Many of the patterns are still good and work on both sheets. There is only about 1 hour of training material from Thorograph and about 18 hours from the Ragozzin tapes. I think the complexity of the sheets combined with the complexity of Thoroughbred handicapping requires one to soak up as much information as possible, so definitely look into the tapes.

As a beginner with sheets, I think you\'ll find the Thorograph\'s are much easier to read, understand and use; plus, you\'ve got all the historical data you\'ll ever want available to you to practice. And that is truly a great benefit.

Hope this helps.

p.s. One thing to do is start listening to some of the training material and learn a couple of patterns--learn about the bounce. Then, start looking at sheets and see if you can recognize patterns. After you do that for a while, learn other patterns and see if you can use those to help you pick horses. Over time, you\'ll continue to learn patterns that you like and feel you can win with and others that don\'t work for you. But start slow and build up your knowledge base through learning and practice.

[kev]

Thats what i would tell ya, is to go to the red board room and download some of the sheets and over to equibase.com for the results.

[goofything]

JB,

My comments aren\'t meant to favor one product or the other. Personally, I think yours is great. I just think there is value in getting knowledge from whereever it may be available, and frankly Ragozzin has a lot to offer.

I\'ve read some of your stuff, but via message boards you have to wade through a lot of unrelevant information, bickerings, etc. to get to the good stuff. Your recent article in Thoroughbred Daily News was very interesting and insightful.

I\'ll bet that over the years you have written enough stuff to fill an encyclopedia full of knowledge. I would suggest that you (or an associate of yours) start filtering some of the information that you write and archiving on your website in a more organized fashion. When someone asks about a particular horse and you analyze it and make several relevant explanatory points, pull out the sheet and the discussion, slap a heading onto it and post it in an \"Encyclopedia of Sheet Knowledge\" section of your website so in the future people can just go there to look at all kinds of patterns and analysis on such patterns. Over time that section of the website would be full of information and of tremendous value to newbies and veterans alike. Likewise, if you do audio seminars (i.e. before the Derby, etc.). Tape them and throw them in the \"encyclopedia\". Yes, seminars take up much more bandwidth, but the other stuff would not take much.

These are just thoughts and ideas. It\'s just difficult for someone to really wade through months and months of bulletin board messages and expect to learn how to use the sheets from that. It takes a bit more structure. The bulletin boards, however, do have a great place on the website--so use them to feed the encyclopedia.

[Point_Given_Gal]

Thank you so very much goofything!  I truly appreciate your help.

[goofything]

Sorry, my comments were so long.

For a great reason to use the sheets look at the Turf Paradise, Race #2 on April 15th (maybe JB can post this particular race on the site again for discussion purposes).

You didn\'t have a super long-shot win the race, but it seemed an easy race to handicap with the sheets and had a nice payday.

If the race gets reposted, we could have a nice discussion in this board about it.